ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: pinaz on September 15, 2015, 05:42:51 AM
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Zero's recent effort to sell off an overbuild of 2014 models with a offer to trade-in (and crush) "classic" models caused me to take stock of some of the faults of the 2011 XU that I bought. It is no wonder they should want to get these things off the road.
I think the single most egregious design flaw of my 2011 XU (and other "classics"?) is the swing arm and chain. The chain crosses over the swing arm, resulting in interference when the chain slaps. Scandalously, Zero waited until the 2013 models to re-design it. Instead, they used a piece of Delrin (or similar material) to keep the chain captive to prevent it hitting the swing arm. One of the side effects of this is the noise (Fisher Price Popper) the bike makes. However, it is far more serious than this. In my opinion, the design is a ticking time bomb. When the Delrin wears and breaks apart, the fragments risk getting jammed into the chain and sprocket. When the bike suddenly grinds to a halt, goodbye rider.
That alone should be reason to get these bikes off the road.
One of the regular maintenance items is the chain tension. The chain tension adjustment mechanism is appallingly ill designed. There simply is inadequate clearance for something that must be done weekly/monthly.
Any change in the eco/sport switch causes the bike to become disabled. When the user accidentally hits the button (or rides over a pothole), the bike stops working until it coasts to a halt. This endangers the rider in traffic.
The throttle angle is so broad as to force the user to have to re-grip the throttle whilst trying to reach normal traffic speed. In a normal motorcycle, throttle travel is normally small as the rider uses a subset of the range of the engine in tandem with gears. It is not valid for Zero to expect safe operation when such a broad angle is used for such a small road speed change.
Zero spent a lot of time marketing how its aluminum bike frame was designed by NASA engineers and how light it was (as-is standalone, not when integrated into the bike assembly). I wish they spent more time thinking more holistically about how components were going to bolt onto said frame. In my opinion, there was a clear lack of thought (fairing brackets, motor position, chain adjustment, and the dreadful chain/swingarm alignment).
Speaking of the frame assembly, disparate metals were used without consideration of Galvanic reaction. For example, the bolts on my bike that hold on the seat became seized because the iron reacted with the aluminum.
The OBD diagnostic port is a sham to only pretend to the California regulators of being compliant. The interface is actually completely proprietary, and there is no service information. This is a vehicle, not a $500 smartphone expected to be thrown away after a few years. Zero acts like it is a smartphone and has seemingly already washed its hands of 2012 and earlier models (predictor of its future behavior when the next model is released?). I think we've all experienced Zero brush off bike issues with the excuse that the engineers are too busy with the launch of the next model.
Motor control is a half-baked amalgam of an Alltrax motor controller and an ill-designed Zero embedded controller than translates the user inputs into signals into the Alltrax motor controller. Said Zero controller watches use of the battery charger (to allow Zero to sidestep warranty if the battery is disconnected for more than 72 hours), but does little of use to user. Error blink codes are temporary and not stored.
The battery charger gets intermittently confused and tries to repeatedly feed high current to battery. The charger has to be powered off for many hours (or day or more) to restore normal operation; user has to periodically check on the bike for this error condition.
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Umm .....
All swingarm bikes that I know of force the chain to cross the swingarm ..... how that is handled is the only issue. Many long-travel suspension bikes (MX, etc) use delrin guides for this purpose. Of course they wear .... and must be replaced unless you dig the rat-a-tat-tat (which also wears the swingarm ......
Mike
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All swingarm bikes that I know of force the chain to cross the swingarm ..... how that is handled is the only issue. Many long-travel suspension bikes (MX, etc) use delrin guides for this purpose. Of course they wear .... and must be replaced unless you dig the rat-a-tat-tat (which also wears the swingarm ......
It is an expected wear item for which Zero hasn't had the foresight to provide replacement for.
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Steel bolts inside aluminium is also common on most other brands, like on the rear axle adjusters. Anti-seize compound is a good thing to use, especially if the parts can get wet.
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Umm .....
All swingarm bikes that I know of force the chain to cross the swingarm ..... how that is handled is the only issue. Many long-travel suspension bikes (MX, etc) use delrin guides for this purpose. Of course they wear .... and must be replaced unless you dig the rat-a-tat-tat (which also wears the swingarm ......
Mike
True that. I've had a worn chain snap on an ER-5 which then proceeded to then wrap itself around my rear wheel. Did it coming out of a turn too, its annoying, and very much a brown trousers moment, but its not goodbye rider.
That ER-5 had some wear on the swing arm from the chain dragging on it too. Lesson? Replace my gorram chain when it's stretching too far... ;)
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Another quirk of the earlier "classic" models was that the owners manual on models through years 2009 said to never ride them in the rain.
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The Delrin slider is a maintenance item on most dirt bikes, including the big mfgr Japanese models.
I have had chain adjustment mechanisms that took 5 different tools and at least 20 minutes to make an adjustment.
On my last SV-650, when they added the ABS, they broke the procedure to replace the rear brake pads. It went from the usual 5min & 1 tool, to spending an hour having completely to disassemble the caliper attachment bracket system.
Also, the ABS hydraulic unit blocked the cam tensioner on the rear cylinder, so you then had to drop the entire rear swingarm to get to it and adjust the valves.
Several models of SV-650 cam chain tensioner mechanism designs had a habit of relaxing and letting the cam chain loosen and lunch the engine. They went through at least FIVE different designs that I'm aware of. C'mon, cam chain tensioners have been around for 40 years, is it THAT hard?
The rear brake caliper bracket bolt on my FJR-1300 seized, tearing a big chunk out of it and necessitating a new rear caliper. Dat wuz some bux.
On a lot of Yamaha sportbikes, including the R1 and my FJR-1300, you have to drain the coolant to even check the valves, as the coolant lines run through the middle of the valve cover, so you have to disconnect them to remove the cover.
The OBD on my '90s era Camaro was completely proprietary. No 3rd party shop could work on it. Same for the ABS system. This is the car that tried to kill me when the ABS failed.
Back in the '80s, with drum brakes, it was a common thing for the rear brake torque arm to fail, allowing the rear brake to not only fail to do anything, but lunch the brake, the rear wheel, and the swingarm. The attitude was "oh darn, hate it when that happens. check your torque arm bolts regularly"
Ask the BMW rider forums about the many common BMW faults, including complete rear swingarm failures, that BMW refuses to acknowledge.
To be honest, it's HARD to design a motorcycle. Modern ICE bikes are so good because they've iterated the living fuck out of the design and learned what not to do, as well as what to do. I was there in the '80s when the Interceptors and Ninjas, and other bikes showed up with brand new features like anti-dive, deltabox frames, and disc brakes on both ends. The 500 Interceptors used to fire rods through the blocks with depressing regularity. Everyone disconnected the anti-dive systems because they turned the brakes to complete mush and were impossible to completely bleed. See any bikes with anti-dive these days?
The joke about first adopters that "you can tell the pioneers by the arrows in their backs" is sadly based in fact.
True that. I've had a worn chain snap on an ER-5 which then proceeded to then wrap itself around my rear wheel.
What's even more fun and expensive is when the chain wraps around the output sprocket and proceeds to destroy the engine case. I've see that happen a couple of times.
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Great post, CrashCash ...... !
I've owned over 70 ICE bikes over the years from the ridiculous to the sublime, and I can assure that every one has its idiosyncracies and downright design "flaws". I'm not a Zero owner yet (got one on the way), but I'm sure it will be no exception. Part of the fun and excitement of 2-wheelin' ......... !
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Yes, great post, CrashCash.
'm not a Zero owner yet (got one on the way), but I'm sure it will be no exception. Part of the fun and excitement of 2-wheelin' ......... !
You have my sympathy. Owning a Zero means paying a premium for a bike that is worth zero 2.5 years later. Owning a Zero means a bike that either doesn't work for weeks or becomes disabled miles from home. Owning a Zero means a motorcycle that can't be maintained/repaired because Zero doesn't document it and discontinues parts for any model out of its 2-year warranty.
But not to worry... Zero will give you a small trade-in allowance towards some high-priced models that are two model years old that they couldn't sell. (That is the same two years upon which replacement parts begin to disappear.) That way, suckers can repeat the whole thing all over again.
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Yes, great post, CrashCash.
'm not a Zero owner yet (got one on the way), but I'm sure it will be no exception. Part of the fun and excitement of 2-wheelin' ......... !
You have my sympathy. Owning a Zero means paying a premium for a bike that is worth zero 2.5 years later. Owning a Zero means a bike that either doesn't work for weeks or becomes disabled miles from home. Owning a Zero means a motorcycle that can't be maintained/repaired because Zero doesn't document it and discontinues parts for any model out of its 2-year warranty.
But not to worry... Zero will give you a small trade-in allowance towards some high-priced models that are two model years old that they couldn't sell. (That is the same two years upon which replacement parts begin to disappear.) That way, suckers can repeat the whole thing all over again.
If everyone had this attitude, we wouldn't get any new products of this complexity. Zero is not out to bilk you, they're trying to survive and grow. If they exhaust their budget serving one need (comprehensive serviceability), they might not break even or prove to investors that the next year is worth funding.
The 2013+ models seem to be a mature platform, even if they're not ideal. The cure for this is: buy a Zero with your eyes open, knowing that the right use-case is that you buy it and ride the hell out of it to get your money's worth, and that it's a secondary vehicle that will lower your overall maintenance needs.
Perhaps you're just waiting for (say) BMW to address your concerns; seriously, who else is going to step into this market and satisfy you? BMW doesn't exactly have a user-service-friendly reputation. Plenty of people think that BMW treats people like suckers. I think this says more about them than BMW.
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BrianTRice ...... +1
So, pinaz - just out of curiosity, are you currently riding an electric motorcycle? If so, what brand and model? I'm jumping in with a good deal (I hope!) on a clean 2011 Zero S because I have to start somewhere. I've watched this scene for years, ridden several prototypes and conversions, marvelled at the high asking price for ALL of the possible choices. I'd be eager to hear suggestions ...... a cheaper alternative with sporting capabilities, a better engineered (but still high priced) bike, etc etc. Like, maybe ...... a Tesla motorcycle, anyone ...... ?
Mike
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If everyone had this attitude, we wouldn't get any new products of this complexity. Zero is not out to bilk you, they're trying to survive and grow.
Zero keeps shafting its existing customers to sell bikes to more first-time suckers.
I think the 2013+ crowd is beginning to awake to this. Look at this forum; 2013 model owners find that the batteries are different to 2014+ models.
If Zero was more upfront about their strategy, I would be more sympathetic. I'll re-quote a post I made 23 Jan 2013 citing a still unmet claim from Zero:
And here are two (optimistic) quotes from director of customer service Richard Kenton:
"We’re working to minimize that risk for new dealers and customers. All of our current owners and buyers are essentially E.V. advocates. We touch base with our riders for real-world feedback on usage, problems, potential changes and accessories. We are currently small and agile enough that we can really reach out to our customers and incorporate what we hear."
"We now have flat rate manuals, parts fiche and service manuals all online, in multiple languages to service our different markets."
http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews/article/zero-motorcycles-aims-lead-electric-bike-revolution (http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews/article/zero-motorcycles-aims-lead-electric-bike-revolution)
These days, they don't even pretend to sell parts for models prior to 2012. I suspect that will become 2013 in a matter of weeks/months when the 2016 model comes out.
I think "Zero Maintenance" (e.g. throw it away... how very green) should be their tag line. :)
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So, pinaz - just out of curiosity, are you currently riding an electric motorcycle? If so, what brand and model? I'm jumping in with a good deal (I hope!) on a clean 2011 Zero S because I have to start somewhere. I've watched this scene for years, ridden several prototypes and conversions, marvelled at the high asking price for ALL of the possible choices. I'd be eager to hear suggestions ......
I have a 2011 Zero XU that I bought new (one of the two model year old leftovers that no one wants) and made the same leap as you appear to be set to.
I thought (naively, with hindsight) that it would be maintainable because it was using off-the-shelf components. I bought it unseen out-of-state because there was no Zero dealer within 700 miles.
What I found was exceptionally bad engineering on Zero's part (to the point where I, as an engineer, would feel uncomfortable with). Zero makes itself a middleman to do anything, and they really don't care to support their product (despite claims, at the time, otherwise).
From the propaganda I hear through the Zero dealer, I think Zero's funders are now positioning it as a motorcycle (secret sauce) battery company. They know that they can't build motorcycles. I assume the companies with the engineering to make motorcycles are waiting for someone else in the market to commoditize battery prices.
So, BrianTRice's point about eyes open and riding the hell out of it to get your money's worth is valid. My added caveat would be that you have only two years or so from the model year where you can hope to get any cooperation from Zero (and still be ready for it to be offline for weeks, so it is not practical as a sole vehicle). At the end of that two year period, be ready to throw the bike away for nothing.
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Duly noted .....
You make it sound pretty grim. I'm a retired engineer myself, and still naive enough to think that something could be done with the basic platform of a 2011 Zero S - seems to me that it can't all be junk ....... !
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You make it sound pretty grim. I'm a retired engineer myself, and still naive enough to think that something could be done with the basic platform of a 2011 Zero S - seems to me that it can't all be junk ....... !
Let me put it this way:
Buying a Zero within the two year from model year period assures you the possibility of warranty repairs (but be ready for unreliable operation and periods of inoperation).
Buying a Zero after that point is no better than buying a hobbyist electric conversion of a motorcycle. Perhaps a conversion is somewhat better in that there is hope for buying standard maintenance components.
For example, the Delrin assembly that I despise so much (and which I got flack above as being "normal" for dirt bikes) is custom milled, not mentioned in the user manual as a wear item, and cannot be purchased like the "normal" dirt bikes that are being compared to.
As long as you are comfortable with the money invested being completely lost, I think it can be a worthy (if not fun) experiment. I feel sorry for people who bought these on finance terms (appropriate for ICE motorcycles) under the mis-belief that the bike would survive that period.
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You make it sound pretty grim. I'm a retired engineer myself, and still naive enough to think that something could be done with the basic platform of a 2011 Zero S - seems to me that it can't all be junk ....... !
Let me put it this way:
Buying a Zero within the two year from model year period assures you the possibility of warranty repairs (but be ready for unreliable operation and periods of inoperation).
Buying a Zero after that point is no better than buying a hobbyist electric conversion of a motorcycle. Perhaps a conversion is somewhat better in that there is hope for buying standard maintenance components.
For example, the Delrin assembly that I despise so much (and which I got flack above as being "normal" for dirt bikes) is custom milled, not mentioned in the user manual as a wear item, and cannot be purchased like the "normal" dirt bikes that are being compared to.
As long as you are comfortable with the money invested being completely lost, I think it can be a worthy (if not fun) experiment. I feel sorry for people who bought these on finance terms (appropriate for ICE motorcycles) under the mis-belief that the bike would survive that period.
How many zero bikes do you own? How many different models have you played with?
Sure have some bold statements I wouldn't even to go as far as saying and I guarantee I have more non working bikes than you have and I have more working bikes than you do as well....
I'm not even offered a trade in deal.... How do you think I feel.....
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As long as you are comfortable with the money invested being completely lost, I think it can be a worthy (if not fun) experiment. I feel sorry for people who bought these on finance terms (appropriate for ICE motorcycles) under the mis-belief that the bike would survive that period.
How many zero bikes do you own? How many different models have you played with?
Sure have some bold statements I wouldn't even to go as far as saying and I guarantee I have more non working bikes than you have and I have more working bikes than you do as well....
I'm not even offered a trade in deal.... How do you think I feel.....
My opinions are my own. My apologizes if I offended. My statement was in the context of drumgadget's consideration of buying a 2011.
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If everyone had this attitude, we wouldn't get any new products of this complexity. Zero is not out to bilk you, they're trying to survive and grow. If they exhaust their budget serving one need (comprehensive serviceability), they might not break even or prove to investors that the next year is worth funding.
BrianTRice ...... +1
When I bought my Zero, I first thought to myself "hey, this is a start-up selling a few hundred bikes a year, they could go out of business any day.". I'm quite pleased that they're even still around, providing some level of support for the older bikes. Frankly I'm amazed and impressed they're willing to offer up newer bikes with significant discounts to the older bike owners.
After 3+ years & 22k miles my 2012 is running great, it's never stranded me. I don't think I paid "a premium" for it, in fact it's saved me a bundlecompared to what it would have cost to put those 22k miles on my BMW (the 6000mi service now runs ~$1000 at the dealer!). It certainly not worth "zero".
Regarding the list of 'design flaws' this thread was started on, my 2012 has no chain, I can switch between ECO/Sport on the fly without problems, throttle travel is reasonable, I've had no trouble with disparte metals on the frame, my battery charger has never been 'confused', and error codes are stored for reading later. It wasn't mentioned but the brushed motor in the 2011's had a host of issues, and they replaced that with the brushless motor in the 2012. (Which had it's own set of problems, which they corrected in 2013)
All this says is that Zero made huge improvements from 2011 to 2012, and again in 2013. Is that really a big shock given their size and the newness/changes in technology?
To be honest, it's HARD to design a motorcycle. Modern ICE bikes are so good because they've iterated the living fuck out of the design and learned what not to do, as well as what to do.
CashCrash ...... +1
Not everyone out there thinks Zero is out to lie, cheat and sucker people.
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Hey now ..... all cool ..... ! I have hopes for this forum as a place to exchange ideas as well as vent. I can certainly understand the emotions that result from feeling as if you've been burned, but I'm still looking for positive ideas and solutions to problems. And I never intended to launch flak at anyone .....
For example: that infamous piece of delrin - my solution to that would be to make a replacement part myself ..... or have it made (I am a machinist). I imagine that it is a milled chunk of readily available delrin. Anyone who's ever owned vintage or classic motorcycles has had to make parts or improvise. Of course, I'll admit that calling a 2011 model "vintage" is quite a stretch .........
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Hey ColoPaul -
You've referred to problems with the 2011 Agni brushed motor. Curious as to what those might be ..... I did a bunch of research before jumping in and had concluded that the '11 model had sorted those problems. I considered a local deal on a clean 2012 (liked the IDEA of the brushless 3-phase drivetrain), but backed off because I could not get a clear answer from the owner re the recall service or any history of the dreaded "glitch".
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Hey ColoPaul -
You've referred to problems with the 2011 Agni brushed motor. Curious as to what those might be ..... I did a bunch of research before jumping in and had concluded that the '11 model had sorted those problems. I considered a local deal on a clean 2012 (liked the IDEA of the brushless 3-phase drivetrain), but backed off because I could not get a clear answer from the owner re the recall service or any history of the dreaded "glitch".
I am only going by various posts by people w/2011's over the years. Here is a example:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2667.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2667.0)
I seem to remember the biggest complaint is with the brushes themselves, wearing too quickly.
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I'm just going to put this out there, as an ex-Navy Nuclear electrician (who worked on high-power IGBT and MOSFET-based AC-DC static electronic reversible power supplies for a bit), I waited very specifically for a brushless motor and a reliable design before deciding to commute on it.
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As long as you are comfortable with the money invested being completely lost, I think it can be a worthy (if not fun) experiment. I feel sorry for people who bought these on finance terms (appropriate for ICE motorcycles) under the mis-belief that the bike would survive that period.
How many zero bikes do you own? How many different models have you played with?
Sure have some bold statements I wouldn't even to go as far as saying and I guarantee I have more non working bikes than you have and I have more working bikes than you do as well....
I'm not even offered a trade in deal.... How do you think I feel.....
My opinions are my own. My apologizes if I offended. My statement was in the context of drumgadget's consideration of buying a 2011.
Everybody has opinions your not going to offend me, nor do you need to validate your reasoning; but I will call you out on it if you have/ or have not had one bike.... Which it sure seems like you avoided the question about exactly how many zero motorcycles you have owned..... If your in here commenting like that I would at least think you have has serious issues with at least 2 zero bikes....
I don't like people who spout all this shit about the bikes need this need that but have less seat time than my girlfriend..... Or some of my friends that don't even have bikes.....
There is a few things I would change with zero motorcycles one which happens to be the main issue with most bikes that have issues... And it hasn't even been mentioned in this thread...... Funny the thing that fails the most no one complains about....
battery Managemnt system needs work..... The bms should not travel inside the battery period! To much work to have the battery taken apart every time you need to service one. It would be very very easy to do with the newer batteries, and then you could control fx packs externally and connect as many as you want while also controlling them more efficiently with 1 bms. Much like the monolith batteries.....1 bms 4 "bricks". If the bms was located just outside the case or I top it would be a quick remove the seat, swap bms and done.... Well after programming...
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Cortezdtv -
Exactly the kind of positive info I'm looking for ..... thanks! If there is one aspect of the 2011 build that I expect to have problems with, it's the battery/BMS. I agree with your idea of an external BMS; seems to me that the battery design is the fastest changing part of the whole EV scene right now. Separating the battery itself from the BMS would allow one to take advantage of the newest battery chemistry/packaging advances ..... such as the Nissan Leaf retrofit in the recent thread. And I was only half kidding about the "Tesla motorcycle" ...... Elon Musk has certainly jumped headfirst into battery manufacturing.
Mike
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BrianTRice - interesting observation ..... I worked for years in the film special FX business with large motor driven systems that required accurate, repeatable positioning. We started with stepping motors, worked up to PWM digital servo controllers using brushed motors, finally graduated to 3-phase brushless servos with Hall effect sensors for both commutation and position control. They all worked pretty well ..... within their limitations! The first two approaches were "home brewed", and as such, blew up from time to time. And of course failure meant only doing the shot over, not suddenly losing power at 70 mph in the fast lane!
So ..... the 2013 design seems to have solved the commutation problem with the 2012 first generation 3-phase brushless design?
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You have my sympathy. Owning a Zero means paying a premium for a bike that is worth zero 2.5 years later. Owning a Zero means a bike that either doesn't work for weeks or becomes disabled miles from home. Owning a Zero means a motorcycle that can't be maintained/repaired because Zero doesn't document it and discontinues parts for any model out of its 2-year warranty.
Yup, I fully accept my bike will have absolutely no trade-in value... but guess what? I don't care.
First off, I understand these bikes are an evolving brand new technology, and a 2013 Zero is like an iPhone 3. It makes calls just fine and it still runs most of the apps, it's just long in the tooth. When it finally breaks, you pony up for an iPhone 7 or whatever. Until then, you use the hell out of it.
Zero only NOW has a semi stable platform to work from. This is kind of an important sea change. The yearly models are no longer individual bespoke customs, and they can now build upon previous year's efforts. I'm **REALLY** curious to go to AIMExpo on the other side of town next month and see the 2016 model.
Second, I'm not the sort of yuppie that trades in bikes every other year. I still have my '07 FJR and I traded my '08 SV for my '15 SR. Previously, I sold my '02 SV to buy an '08 because it had ABS and fuel injection. Guess what? I only got about $500 for that '02 because I rode the hell out of it and it had 88,000 miles and no trade in value.
> Zero doesn't document it
Yup, they're a very small company with little manpower struggling to get bikes out the door to make enough profit to stay in business.
People don't understand documenting stuff and doing it well enough for it to be a product by itself, is extremely difficult and time consuming. A good tech writer is expensive.
While I *really* hate not having a service manual, it doesn't need one, as I can replace the tires, brake pads & fluid, and the belt by myself. I do wish there was a pamphlet that discussed the trickier parts of these operations, such as the brake pad pin retainers that go "ping" and vanish forever if you don't know about them.
My Zero can be maintained just fine, and it's a hell of a lot simpler than ANY of the dozen or so ICE bikes I've ever had. There are a lot of little well thought out details, like the metal tire valves, the extra bleed valve in the master cylinder, the smart placement of the ABS HU behind the triple tree, the really nice-to-work-with front and rear axle designs, and the state-of-the-art ABS wheel sensor designs.
A standard service manual, to fully diagnose & troubleshoot something as complex as a Zero would be about a foot thick, especially considering they're starting from nothing with techs that know only internal combustion engines. They don't know electricity and they don't know complex computers. Zero would have to start wtih "... current is a flow of electrons in a conductor..." At this point in time it'd be a massive waste of effort.
Basically, Zero is stuck trying to get washing machine repairmen to fix desktop computers. That really "ain't gonna happen" so things stack up until a Zero tech is available to dial in.
Yes, this sucks.
If you have an economic, workable solution, I'd be glad to hear it. I'm also sure Zero would pay you a chunk of change to implement it.
In the meantime I'm riding my bike. If it breaks, I'll take it to the dealer and be prepared to wait.
For me, this really sucks because I'm the OCD type that works on every nut & bolt of my bikes, and none of them had seen a dealer since 2001, until my SR needed a new wiring harness.
But hey, that's how it works until the electric vehicle industry grows up. It's not just Zero. Try working on your Tesla. Or your Empulse.
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Thanks, CrashCash for your well-reasoned post. You make plenty of good points.
Expanding from what you said, there do tend to be two broad categories of motorcycle buyers. (This is a generalization, of course.) One is the sort who just writes a check to the dealer for each maintenance (and possibly trades in bikes all the time). The second type is the OCD type who works on every nut and bolt of their bikes (and possibly buys them to keep for longer periods).
I think Zero's emphasis is towards the former. The dealers get information on a limited need-to-know basis; the buyers get nada. If the owner is someone who just wants to ride the bike, such details are unimportant.
I very deliberately posted in the pre-2013 discussion, as my criticism is focused on the earlier models. However, my reservation is that if Zero has a track record of pushing earlier bikes under rug after 2 or so years, will their behavior be any better with the newer models?
My hope would be that the 2013+ are less risky. The saving grace may be that the 2013+ models have much more engineering effort invested; the platforms may be much more serviceable (subject to battery compatibility) even if Zero has abandoned them.
That unsold 2014 models are collecting dust when 2016 models are about to be released suggests to me that the market also has some concern about a window of support.
I don't agree with your assertion that a service manual must describe from the bottom up on the flow of electrons. If this were so, internal combustion itself (not to mention highly complex carburetor operation) would need to be described in ICE service manuals, and this is simply not so.
Even a wiring diagram (routine for any vehicle) is apparently too much to ask for from Zero, and that doesn't sit well with me at all.
From a strictly business perspective, I can't fault Zero's strategy. Documentation is hard. Customer support is costly. Doing without these cuts down on expenses. (Also, venture capitalists always want a "barrier to competitive entry", and being as opaque as possible helps this cause too.)
However, the bikes themselves are evidence to buyers as to the care of the designers. There were some really amateur mistakes in the early models that give me pause. For example, I mentioned that operating the eco/sport switch on a 2011 causes the bike to come to a halt. Apparently, they fixed this in the 2012. However, what sort of self-respecting engineer programs firmware into an ECU module without any upgrade mechanism and then pours quarts of epoxy over the PCB? (What sort of self-respecting engineer doesn't de-bounce a switch!?) Zero would never even acknowledge the problem to me. I presume they did that because their shortsighted design would necessitate shipping a brand new ECU with a software fix. If Zero had handled such things better, I'd be more tolerant of being an early-adopter.
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CrashCash -
Well thought-out post, thanks!
And pinaz - same to you, especially your comments about a service manual.
My thoughts:
I agree with everything you say about the scale and pace of the tech revolution we are privileged to be part of. You do have a choice: play, or .... don't. It's hard to accept depreciation on the scale of the Zero 2012 and prior models, but every owner of the "latest phone" or the "hippest laptop" has been there on a smaller scale. The only cause for righteous indignation (as opposed to mere annoyance or disappointment) would be fraud of some sort; in the case of the electric motorcycle, that would mean misrepresentation of features or performance, or hard promises broken. It is this latter thing that seems to drive the resentment - the lack of a clear upgrade path for the earlier models. In the absence of an extensive trained dealer/service network, the burden falls totally on the small. struggling manufacturer ........ unless ....... said manufacturer makes a concerted effort to educate the knowledgeable owner with the goal of more user serviceability.
What I would like to see (and hope to see on this Forum) is cooperation between Zero and the many electrically savvy owners; a first step would be a "service manual" that at the least contained schematics, block diagrams, info about getting deeper into the bike than just the rolling chassis. Granted, only a small percentage of (even) Zero owners are capable of delving into the high power electrics or the intricate interconnected digital control hardware, but for those few it would be a Godsend. And the exchange of info would, I believe, have a synergistic effect that would only speed up the adoption of the electric vehicle.
I do realize that there may be liability issues here ..... but I'd hate to think that Zero are being stingy with information just to protect corporate "secrets". Secrets ..... on the earlier "obsolete" models?
This is a great thread!
Mike
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Thanks, Mike.
As a purely practical matter, I suspect Zero can't afford the luxury of considering electrically savvy owners; I am pessimistic about Zero providing any information.
However, I do think that it is not at all unreasonable to see at least a wiring diagram for every model year and a "service highlights" to document the technical changes/improvements between model years.
To put things in a more business perspective (that might be more on the level of the Zero decision makers):
There are the "faithful" buyers that will happily pour money away to have the latest thing (and/or because they believe in the cause). However, catering exclusively to those severely limits your market. (I would argue that even the faithful would get tired of this eventually.)
To expand the business beyond that, one needs bikes that will have some market value even after the warranty expires.
Presently, when the warranty is up, the buyer is plain out of luck. The resale value reflects this. (I would suggest that the sell rate on the 2014 also reflects this.)
Even the 2013+ models, despite their superiority, have this issue. Say a buyer has a 2013 model with a battery that is different from the 2014+. What assurances (or even intentions) has Zero made publicly to make the 2013 battery pack for a period of time?
I do think it would behoove Zero to telegraph what their intentions are for supporting models beyond the warranty period. It seems disingenuous to talk about battery packs that should last 300k when the bike itself is only warranted for 2 years.
If, at the end of the warranty period, the bike is worth nothing (I'm talking an "arm's length" metric here, not what personal value it might have to the owner whilst it works), I think Zero is going to struggle to grow its customer base.
Even a Certified Pre-Owned program featuring bikes with some additional warranty might inspire some market confidence without requiring any information disclosure. Even smartphones are not thrown away; they get refurbished and re-sold. An ostensibly "green" vehicle shouldn't be based on discarding it so soon.
I recognize that there is a Catch 22 problem here. If Zero can't sell all the new bikes it makes, it doesn't want certified used bikes cannibalizing its sales. However, it forever limits its market for selling new bikes if the older bikes depreciate so rapidly. Tesla is no dummy here; they've kept the latest design improvements appealing to the "must have" crowd whilst not entirely pulling the rug out from underneath the buyers of the earlier variants.
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All good points, pinaz .....
I can't disagree with any of it .......
But this "naive newbie" is still gonna stubbornly hold onto the faint hope that the exchange of information can ameliorate this situation. A combination of user/owner reverse engineering, coupled with even a small amount of cooperation from Zero the company (or ex-employees) ..... could do wonders to improve the situation, in the spirit of sharing. I also agree totally that this approach could be good for business in the long run.
Some years ago (before the "S" model came out), I considered hacking together my own electric conversion. I decided that the ICE and the electric bike platforms were just too disparate to do this in an aesthetic fashion - this after riding several "one-offs" that all had their quirks and faults ..... not to mention NO support whatsoever! My hope for the older Zero is that at least the rolling chassis has been designed from the ground up as an electric bike ..... yeah, I know .... not perfect, but ...... few ICE bikes were either! I think the idea of coming up with my own upgrade path based on info gleaned from this Forum and others is pretty exciting!
How's that for naivte?
Mike
PS: ever build a custom-framed ICE bike, or maybe an "engine swap" like a Triton?
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Pinaz, I feel I should mention that there are discounted 2014 bikes available because of a fleet deal that fell through and not because they were 'gathering dust' unable to be sold.
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Pinaz, I feel I should mention that there are discounted 2014 bikes available because of a fleet deal that fell through and not because they were 'gathering dust' unable to be sold.
Good to know... I talked with a dealer about them, but no one mentioned this. Thanks. BTW, at the time I was told that there were only '14 DS and S models available; I might have figured ZF would be more popular fleet vehicle. I guess it depends on the type of fleet.
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Thanks, Mike.
As a purely practical matter, I suspect Zero can't afford the luxury of considering electrically savvy owners; I am pessimistic about Zero providing any information.
However, I do think that it is not at all unreasonable to see at least a wiring diagram for every model year and a "service highlights" to document the technical changes/improvements between model years.
To put things in a more business perspective (that might be more on the level of the Zero decision makers):
There are the "faithful" buyers that will happily pour money away to have the latest thing (and/or because they believe in the cause). However, catering exclusively to those severely limits your market. (I would argue that even the faithful would get tired of this eventually.)
To expand the business beyond that, one needs bikes that will have some market value even after the warranty expires.
Presently, when the warranty is up, the buyer is plain out of luck. The resale value reflects this. (I would suggest that the sell rate on the 2014 also reflects this.)
Even the 2013+ models, despite their superiority, have this issue. Say a buyer has a 2013 model with a battery that is different from the 2014+. What assurances (or even intentions) has Zero made publicly to make the 2013 battery pack for a period of time?
I do think it would behoove Zero to telegraph what their intentions are for supporting models beyond the warranty period. It seems disingenuous to talk about battery packs that should last 300k when the bike itself is only warranted for 2 years.
If, at the end of the warranty period, the bike is worth nothing (I'm talking an "arm's length" metric here, not what personal value it might have to the owner whilst it works), I think Zero is going to struggle to grow its customer base.
Even a Certified Pre-Owned program featuring bikes with some additional warranty might inspire some market confidence without requiring any information disclosure. Even smartphones are not thrown away; they get refurbished and re-sold. An ostensibly "green" vehicle shouldn't be based on discarding it so soon.
I recognize that there is a Catch 22 problem here. If Zero can't sell all the new bikes it makes, it doesn't want certified used bikes cannibalizing its sales. However, it forever limits its market for selling new bikes if the older bikes depreciate so rapidly. Tesla is no dummy here; they've kept the latest design improvements appealing to the "must have" crowd whilst not entirely pulling the rug out from underneath the buyers of the earlier variants.
Thanks, CrashCash for your well-reasoned post. You make plenty of good points.
Expanding from what you said, there do tend to be two broad categories of motorcycle buyers. (This is a generalization, of course.) One is the sort who just writes a check to the dealer for each maintenance (and possibly trades in bikes all the time). The second type is the OCD type who works on every nut and bolt of their bikes (and possibly buys them to keep for longer periods).
I think Zero's emphasis is towards the former. The dealers get information on a limited need-to-know basis; the buyers get nada. If the owner is someone who just wants to ride the bike, such details are unimportant.
I very deliberately posted in the pre-2013 discussion, as my criticism is focused on the earlier models. However, my reservation is that if Zero has a track record of pushing earlier bikes under rug after 2 or so years, will their behavior be any better with the newer models?
My hope would be that the 2013+ are less risky. The saving grace may be that the 2013+ models have much more engineering effort invested; the platforms may be much more serviceable (subject to battery compatibility) even if Zero has abandoned them.
That unsold 2014 models are collecting dust when 2016 models are about to be released suggests to me that the market also has some concern about a window of support.
I don't agree with your assertion that a service manual must describe from the bottom up on the flow of electrons. If this were so, internal combustion itself (not to mention highly complex carburetor operation) would need to be described in ICE service manuals, and this is simply not so.
Even a wiring diagram (routine for any vehicle) is apparently too much to ask for from Zero, and that doesn't sit well with me at all.
From a strictly business perspective, I can't fault Zero's strategy. Documentation is hard. Customer support is costly. Doing without these cuts down on expenses. (Also, venture capitalists always want a "barrier to competitive entry", and being as opaque as possible helps this cause too.)
However, the bikes themselves are evidence to buyers as to the care of the designers. There were some really amateur mistakes in the early models that give me pause. For example, I mentioned that operating the eco/sport switch on a 2011 causes the bike to come to a halt. Apparently, they fixed this in the 2012. However, what sort of self-respecting engineer programs firmware into an ECU module without any upgrade mechanism and then pours quarts of epoxy over the PCB? (What sort of self-respecting engineer doesn't de-bounce a switch!?) Zero would never even acknowledge the problem to me. I presume they did that because their shortsighted design would necessitate shipping a brand new ECU with a software fix. If Zero had handled such things better, I'd be more tolerant of being an early-adopter.
I fall into a few of your categories, I know they are just general, but let me try answer a few of these points. My first bike, was a really really beat down 2010 that I bought from my neighbor it was there pit bike. I was young but it was a small little X and it served me well. So well I proceeded to beat it into the ground, beating the local trails with friends. Fortunately for me Zero is local and they were able to help me with a new bike, the old one now by this time completely bald sprockets, not even 1 tooth, smooth.....but hey it never left me stranded even, after the sprocket gave way 5 miles from home, it was just a slow is trip, like a car when the tranny is blown and your limping to the shop to get it fixed. I cant complain about that bike, Zero was able to retrofit 2011 stuff on the bike and for a small fee got me up and running again.
I loved this bike so much i street legaled it then proceeded to buy another, and another, and well you can guess where this is going, to and another, until I basically had a fleet.
Let me touch on the "Zero" value point
That's not really true now that Zero gives the trade in, and even before, the bikes stayed around 2500-3500 for a really beat down one, lets face it, most beat down motorcycles sell for the going rate... 1000$ so to me they have held there value
Compare it to a 2014 CRF 450X 8500MSRP starting plus delivery fee 500 blah blah blah lets just say 9000
zero fx new 2013 13000 msrp fees inclueded
today the 14 CRF on craigslist for 4500 all day around me
if you can even find a 2013 fx for sale
cheapest one Ive even seen was on here not too long ago, and he is a new member think he bought it in a day or 2..... at almost 6000 out the door, most Ive seen went for in the 7000-9000 range.... so that is very even with a gas bike of equal size
so even as a "early adopter" its not that bad, and most of the people who own zeros have them a long time, until they get another...
The support has been getting with every year, and with any bike past 2013 it is an un-describable amount easier to diagnose and fix them. When they went from a 2 wire connection at the motor to the 3 phase with encoder angle it changed everything about the bikes. From the trade in program offered they are clearly trying to help, what would seem everyone with a street zero, to get on a newer more reliable bike that any zero dealer can work on. Lets face it there are not very many dealers that know alot about the very early bikes (pre 2012), and from a companies stand point they cant sit and dwell over a "miss" design here or there, they have to move on and get ready for the next year of bikes.
From this point forward the platform is going to stay the same, so you will be able to use newer parts in the older bikes. You can already with many of the parts and its only going to expand to include the batteries eventually. You have to think if even if they were to leave the MY 13 bikes out, then they would be adopted into trade in when the 2017 bikes come out, something logical like they just did.
by offering the trade in it holds the value of any street legal Zero up as well.
as far as serviceability this is a big conversation... and honestly hard to even type its a huge topic of conversation.
Its pretty clear that they are trying to take the older bikes which had a lot random issues particularly the 2012's and get people to make the switch.... hard to rag on a company that would do that in my opinion, no other auto maker would even consider it.
And.... They have been more and more helpful as years goes on, you have to think the customer service staff is small as far answering phone calls, emails, etc, its only a handful of people, so they do do a pretty good job.
Your not allowed to touch your own Tesla, and they make you perform annual service, why should zero really be any different?
just to play devils advocate here from there prospective how can you guarantee that every individual is capable of working on their own bike. You go playing around with to many settings on a zero and you might end up in reverse, seriously.... and from a liability stand point they cant have that happen, well ever. Look at what happened to Toyota and the floor mat flooring itself issue, if first service point on any toyota is check list. CHECK DRIVER FLOOR MAT for proper placement blah blah blah
Zero doesn't want anyone hurting themselves on the bike, from playing with the settings, seems reasonable, ish.
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That's not really true now that Zero gives the trade in, and even before, the bikes stayed around 2500-3500 for a really beat down one, lets face it, most beat down motorcycles sell for the going rate... 1000$ so to me they have held there value
by offering the trade in it holds the value of any street legal Zero up as well.
I guess everyone has different experiences.
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That's not really true now that Zero gives the trade in, and even before, the bikes stayed around 2500-3500 for a really beat down one, lets face it, most beat down motorcycles sell for the going rate... 1000$ so to me they have held there value
by offering the trade in it holds the value of any street legal Zero up as well.
I guess everyone has different experiences.
Does your bike run? were you not offered the trade in? or do you just not want it?
Yes that is my experience, and my opionon, but show me where im wrong in the value category? If I am indeed of its not my much.
Show me how your bike is worth 0$....
Or well lets hear your experience.... I provided some validity (or what I think is some) to the statements I made.
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Fortunately for me Zero is local and they were able to help me with a new bike
were you not offered the trade in?
Given your proximity to and direct dealings with Zero, you must be in California. I think things are a little different there. You have to admit that you have cherry-picked a more rosy market.
Even if I tried to sell out-of-state to California, the various motorcycle shipping options state up to 15 days to ship. Zero's user manual says the battery can't be taken off the charger for more than 3 days.
The only local offer was to take a trade-in for a '14 DS/S, but that isn't a remotely similar bike to the XU. Getting $3k knocked off the most expensive models in the lineup of a two-year old model doesn't mean the existing bikes have value. The dealer was trying to claim that I could then sell the bike, but just the sales tax wipes out most of the trade-in, and then the '14 models are simply no longer worth their list price.
For comparison, when I sold my long-serving Suzuki GS500E a few years ago, I had multiple buyers emailing me within minutes of my Craigslist post.
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Wasn't trying to rose the market, it's just what it is around here;
I stay on Craigslist because of my job so I look at bikes and cars a lot too....
Sorry your area isn't the same..... Or at least a little closer
Trust me I feel for you on the trade in, I wanted to do it as well but I want to trade in a non working bike not my working bike.... Why would I do that :(
And I'm with you I was offer the fx on trade in initially, that all changed real quick
Every company has some flaws....
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Some years ago (before the "S" model came out), I considered hacking together my own electric conversion. I decided that the ICE and the electric bike platforms were just too disparate to do this in an aesthetic fashion - this after riding several "one-offs" that all had their quirks and faults ..... not to mention NO support whatsoever!
It is more than aesthetics; what is troubling about conversions is that the motor seems to get placed where ever it will fit rather than what makes sense for the swingarm geometry.
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I don't agree with your assertion that a service manual must describe from the bottom up on the flow of electrons. If this were so, internal combustion itself (not to mention highly complex carburetor operation) would need to be described in ICE service manuals, and this is simply not so.
Actually, yes it is so. Look at the "Honda Common Service Manual" part #61CM001
This is a manual that details what a shop tech needs to know before he picks up the model-specific manual for his bike. It details such things as:
* what different types of ball/needle bearings are, and how to take care of them
* what the strength markings on bolts means, what torque value means, how to torque down a bolt, and why there are special bolts in special situations, ways to keep your fasteners from loosening, and 20 types of fasteners other than nuts & bolts.
* how the throttle, choke, fuel pump and crankcase breather work, and the oil pump on a 2-stroke.
* what valve clearance means and how to use feeler gauges, including ancient torsion-bar style valve springs
* what chain sliders, chain guides, guide sliders and rollers are, on a swingarm
* how to change brake & clutch fluids
* the difference between chain, belt, v-matic, and shaft drives
* how transmissions and manual and automatic clutches work
* how to do compression and leak-down testing
* how carburetors, fuel injection, and emissions controls work, including PAIR valves and accelerator pumps, and the theory of the idle, main, and high speed jets and needles, as well as the difference between constant-velocity and flat-slide carburetors.
* how to change a tire on a rim
* how front suspension works, including scooter Earl forks and various types of "forkless" front ends
* several different frame types, including stamped metal, welded tube, and aluminum delta box
* how rear suspension works, including single-sided swingarms, and dirtbike progressive linkages
* electrical fundamentals, including
** how to not crush wires
** what DC is
** what AC is
** what current/resistance/amperage is, and Ohm's Law
** how a rectifier works, and spark plug coils
** how a alternator, generator, or magneto works (and shows several designs of each)
** how a breaker point system works
** how transistors & diodes work, and how the CDI & transistorized ignition systems work
** how switches and safety cutouts work
** basic diagnostics such as what a DMM is, and voltage drop testing
There's a ton more, but I got tired of typing. It's well-written and easily $120 worth of entertainment, which is what mine cost me, I think.
I don't know if other manufacturer's have such basic "starter" manuals, but everyone said "you gotta buy that Honda one, it's a treasure"
You didn't think service techs magically knew all this shit, I hope? Of course by the time they go "I wanna be a bike tech" they SHOULD, but then I know a ton of "software engineers" that have no clue what a linked list is.
My earlier point is that there's currently no such manual for EVs because each EV (including Tesla, Brammo, Zero, Mission, etc) is unique in its computer systems and controller design. To work on them, you have to start with a ton of electrical and computer knowledge, then get access to the manufacturer's "super secret sauce"
This sauce is so secret because (like software source code) it represents all the hard work and all the expensive design, testing, failure, redesign, retest, etc that went into things.
At the end of the day, a Zero is a battery pack, motor, frame, some computers, and firmware. The firmware probably is 75% of the work of designing a Zero, other than sourcing and manufacturing the battery pack.
This means the ICE tech at the local bike dealer probably takes a basic course from Zero, and then the troubleshooting procedure is mainly "1-800-CALL-ZERO" and this sucks. I don't think it'll improve until Zero can spend money on a REAL tech repair course.
Part of the problem is also no one knows the failure modes. What are the symptoms of a bad BMS versus the bad wiring harness that my bike had? How was Zero able to tell the difference over the phone? How do you tell if the Sevcon is bad, or maybe it's just a bad CANBUS connector?
However, the bikes themselves are evidence to buyers as to the care of the designers. There were some really amateur mistakes in the early models that give me pause. For example, I mentioned that operating the eco/sport switch on a 2011 causes the bike to come to a halt. Apparently, they fixed this in the 2012. However, what sort of self-respecting engineer programs firmware into an ECU module without any upgrade mechanism and then pours quarts of epoxy over the PCB?
Yup. I can easily see that as a software design mistake. I see crap like that all the time, like a customer service website that based everything on their registration number, but never gave them a place to enter it, or update it for new purchases.
Also, any industrial electronics are going to be potted in epoxy. This is for vibration and moisture resistance. Look at any motorcycle regulator/rectifier, ECU, or dashboard controller. Hell, I remember blowing a huge crater in a reg/rec once when my stator windings shorted, and it was over an inch deep in the epoxy.
I've seen Intel industrial evaluation boards back in the '80s that were program-once and toss the entire board.
However, I've seen the BMS board for my 2015 and it's not potted, which was a huge surprise to me.
Anyway, when these bikes were designed EVERYONE WAS AN AMATEUR. There were (and still are) very few electric bikes out there, and so they had to stumble across "oops don't do THAT" since they were the first ones to do whatever.
It's just like rockets in the '50s, when people realized "oops, don't let your turbine blades rub on the casing!", "don't put room temp fuel lines next to cryogenic oxidizer lines so they don't freeze" and "make sure your fuel lines don't vibrate until they snap!" - that's "common sense" only in hindsight.
Hell, the Russians, who are old hands at rockets, recently committed the "don't put room temp fuel lines next to cryogenic oxidizer lines so they don't freeze" mistake with the new Fregat upper stage design, and they sure as hell should have known better.
I have heard the military contract was a godsend, since the military beat the shit out of the bikes in ways a customer who had to pay for his bike never would, then gave them feedback on how it broke. It was a huge torture testing program for free.
Personally most of this is why I wasn't real interested in electric bikes until I saw Zero had ABS and real suspension. It meant they were perhaps not "grown up" but certainly past the "teenager" stage of being temperamental and throwing fits.
My Zero is fundamentally different from any bike I've ever owned. I don't consider it a motorcycle, but more as a battery powered computer network on wheels.
I consider it to be in the same era as ICE bikes in the 1920s. Read "Early Motorcycles, Construction and Repair" by Victor W. Page for an eyeopening look at the shit people had to put up with...
For example, one early "carburetor" was a set of cotton wicks in the fuel tank leading to the intake!
They didn't have clutches, so they had bicycle pedals to restart at every stop, or operated a sprocket to slip the leather belt.
They didn't have oil pumps, it was up to the rider to pump in oil every so often by hand.
Engines didn't have intake valve mechanisms, other than having suction open them.
An early ignition system was opening a small window showing the fuel vapors a flame.
I'm hoping we're kind of past that technical level of EV development. That's the lead-acid battery, 15 mile range level of EV.
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God, I haven't thought of torsion valve springs in decades. I remember taking the valve cover off my first bike and going "where the hell are the valve springs!?"
Also, "where the hell is the oil filter?!" as it didn't have one! It had a cup in the middle of the clutch that gathered particles from the oil with centrifugal force, and cleaning it was a nightmare. Most people didn't even know about it, which is why the bikes didn't usually last past a year or two.
Now I need to schedule more trauma sessions with my psychiatrist...
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However, what sort of self-respecting engineer programs firmware into an ECU module without any upgrade mechanism and then pours quarts of epoxy over the PCB?
Also, any industrial electronics are going to be potted in epoxy. This is for vibration and moisture resistance. Look at any motorcycle regulator/rectifier, ECU, or dashboard controller.
I think there may be a misunderstanding. Just to clarify on the epoxy: I'm not criticizing the use of epoxy per se. The problem was that there wasn't a mechanism to update the software once the PCB had been encapsulated in epoxy.
I've seen Intel industrial evaluation boards back in the '80s that were program-once and toss the entire board.
To be fair... in the 80s, ROMs were "mask ROMs", program-once, or variants of the "program-once" in ceramic-packages with a window that could be exposed to UV light to erase it. Such approaches became obsolete by the mid 90s. Zero didn't design their ECU in the 1980s; their microcontroller has re-programmable NOR flash.
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As 1920s motorcycles were just raised - a friend rode his 1920something (1925 I think) Norton 16H 20+ miles each way to an historic motorcycle show last weekend. Anyone here think a pre-2013 Zero will be making a ride like that in 2100 or so?
Or, for that matter, 2020?
Peter
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And thanks, pinaz, for this thread.
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And thanks, pinaz, for this thread.
I'm glad someone got some sort of utility out of it.
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As 1920s motorcycles were just raised - a friend rode his 1920something (1925 I think) Norton 16H 20+ miles each way to an historic motorcycle show last weekend. Anyone here think a pre-2013 Zero will be making a ride like that in 2100 or so?
Or, for that matter, 2020?
Peter
Absolutely! Jay Leno is driving around a 1909 electric car. I can certainly imagine someone taking pride in finding the oldest Zero they can find and refurbing it to show it off in 2100.
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I'll second the thanks to pinaz for this thread ..... lots of food for thought!
Today, my "new to me" 2011 Zero S arrived from Minnesota, after an arduous 3-week journey without connection to its life-preserving 110vac umbilical. I'm happy to report that the bike booted up normally, showed battery "full", and put up with being flogged for 10 miles before getting a refreshing charge. Did I just luck out? We'll see, eh?
Mike
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trade in credit towards a 2014? how much trade in? Can that still be attained?
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trade in credit towards a 2014? how much trade in? Can that still be attained?
Zero sent letters to 2010-2012 model owners in late August offering a trade-in of the "classic" models towards 2014 models. If memory serves, it was roughly $2k to $5k depending on the year and model. There was no clarity as to how long the offer was valid.
When I spoke with a dealer over a month ago, only 2014 DS and S models (with maximum batteries?) were available for purchase.
The source of accurate information about availability and trade-in price would be a Zero dealer.
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So I tried very hard to take advantage of this offer. I own a 2010 S in excellent operating condition (I spent $1000 a year ago to have the factory replace the controller and motor brushes at about 3500 miles).
The trade-in credit is $5K toward a 2014 bike. Looks like my model fetches around $2500 here in the SF Bay area on Craigslist (people try to get more, but they stay listed until the price gets lowered toward $2500). So, at face value Zero is offering a premium of $2500 in order to take the old bike off the road.
Unfortunately, this $5K trade-in credit seems only to be in effect against the full MSRP (+ freight and dealer prep) - I have not been able to find a dealer willing to negotiate a lower price even though the 2014s are now 2 model years old with less attractive tires and breaks, and priced higher than the 2016s. So, the net price of the 2014 with program trade-in credit vs a 2016 selling my bike on Craigslist is about the same but I'd have a bike with considerably less value that the 2016.
I did find dealers with demo models (under 200 miles on the odometers) that were willing to deal on price, but Zero will not include these bikes in the program.
My conclusion - they don't really want for this program to work, its a PR effort. No problem with that, but I wasted time and effort following up on it. I'll probably buy at 2016 in a couple of years off Craigslist.
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Zero did present it as if it were some sort of reward to loyal owners, which I think is disingenuous.
I presume that Zero telegraphed their intents on 2016 pricing to dealers prior to the public disclosure. The dealer I dealt with seemed to know that it wasn't the value that was claimed. As soon as the 2016 models became public, the penny dropped.
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pinaz
I agree with the disingenuous comment - and I think that's being kind. Zero's letter speaks of "As a way of saying thank you to those early adopters.... we have a special upgrade program available". When it seems they just wanted to get rid of some old stock they were stuck with, and dispose of some older bikes that are just problems for them in coming years.
For me, this was the last straw. Getting the smarmy letter from Zero making the offer - given the long run of problems we've had - was eyerollingly bad. A reminder our multiple hassles culminating in the dangerous throttle problem our 2012 XU developed - details on this thread: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4876.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4876.0)
I realize other folks have had different experiences in their dealings with Zero. Mine leave me with the impression that Zero has an uneasy relationship with my concepts of decent behavior.
We've been trying to decide what to do with the Zero and have come to the - when you're in a hole, stop digging - point. Not sure how we're going to get rid of it yet, but I'm looking forward to never seeing it again.
Peter
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It depends on how you want to spin it, I suppose.
Tempest76 has an old bike in "excellent" condition, and concludes that the program is "about the same" versus selling on craigslist. But what about the zero owners with bikes that are in "lemon" condition? - this is a great deal and certainly is good will from Zero for them. To me, seems like that's the intent of the program.
I took my "spotless" 2012 to the Zero dealer this spring and asked about trade-in value if I got a 2015SR - the dealer (who sold me the Zero for $12K 3 years ago) wouldn't even offer me a dime! Clearly not a hot, easy-to-sell commodity! And craigslist is no panacea either. So Zero offering me $6000 (even if you derate the amount for 2014 v 2016 and 2014 MSRP etc) looks very reasonable.
Zero, for whatever reason, ended up with some extra 2014's. They could have just offered them to dealers at a discount, but they chose instead to offer 'early adopters' the bikes first. Yes, by making the offer related to the 2014MSRP they 'poof' up the discount so it looks bigger than it really is - Still I think it's a sincere effort to help out those with out-of-warranty troublesome bikes.
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It certainly doesn't indicate an overall pattern of behavior on Zero's part.
I bought a 2011 XU that was NOS. I liked it so much that I bought a 2014 SR as soon as it was available. Then the XU developed a no drive problem. Even though I had two-year warranty paperwork, Zero gave me a huge fight over doing a parts warranty, indicated they would pay for it, then said it was damage to the throttle which was causing the problem. I replaced the throttle on my nickel. A few miles later, the bike was dead again. Zero did step up to fix it - so far, they've replaced the MBB and gone through the wiring harness. It's been six months. The bike is still dead. They say they are out of ideas. I'm left with a bike I can't sell, and that they won't take as trade in since I've already bought a 2014.
Am I upset? Yes. Have I stopped talking up Zero to my friends? Yes. Am I slagging them off? No. But at this point I've basically written off the price of the XU even though it's barely four years old, and was sold just two and a half years ago. It's the truth about being on the cutting edge: sometimes you bleed, sometimes for thousands of dollars. I don't expect to ever get a cent that I spent on this bike back. That really ruins the math on cost per mile.
Zero still has the opportunity to step up and do the right thing. Right now they're not even returning my phone calls or emails. Getting the letter in the middle of this process was an absolutely offensive action. The next move is theirs. I feel badly for the dealer, who has been really nice to work with and now has this bike taking up space in their shop for 6+ months, absolutely useless to them and to me.
(this is, by the way, ignoring the problem with the 2014 that I'm going to just live with now that it's out of labor warranty: the steering lock broke. I'm not going to pay to fix it even though the parts are covered, because I don't trust them to not break something else in the meanwhile or find some way to charge me for it)
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Anyone still looking for a deal on the trade in should give us a ring. We have a few brand new 2014 models we'd be willing to make a deal on.
Hollywood Electrics
323-654-8271
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
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Follow up here: Zero is buying back my 'lemon' 2011 XU for an accessory credit that is a bit more than I could get for it in working condition on CL. This seems very fair and is a company standing behind their product, even if it took about 7 months to make them do it. Once things started moving they were very straightforward to work with. I feel very supported and it's been a great weight lifted off my shoulders to not think about the bike, which I had written off at this point.
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I'll add to the praise of Zero. I've had my 2012 DS ZF-9 for 3000 miles now, and NO issues, concerns, problems. Range is a little less but it's consistent. Power is not what the 2015 demonstrator showed me, but it's as fast or faster than my 650 gas machine. Quiet, responsive, and a blast in traffic or on trail.
I'm looking for problems. Mine was one of the last to have a vented-case motor; and I'm sure that will fill up with crud and water and kill it eventually. In THEORY a new motor should be a bolt-on; but I guess they changed the voltage standard as well as software along with the new motor. AND are not supporting this one.
I did make inquiries into the Early Adopter program - my chin hit the bricks when I heard what they'd credit me. UNTIL...I found out that it was only on 2014s (they have a few in stock at the factory) and they are not cutting deals. Had they sharpened things down a few thousands, given that the 2014s are already obsolete...I'd have been there now. But they wouldn't and I won't.
We will see. I may have a Zero for a few years, cheap - or I may have a "project bike" for the next owner to buy for a few hundred $$$.
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Those are good points, but I think their marketing philosophy is wrongheaded.
The Japanese automakers got a toehold in this country by approaching the sale, not as the object to be obtained by any means necessary, but as the start of a long-term relationship. Zero could do well by adopting a similar view.
Technology is leaping ahead on these things. They could take ADVANTAGE of this by either offering Upgrade programs for older machines - let's face it, it's just the battery pack, software and motor. What costs is the engineering. Sell parts/technical data for rebuilding - and make it known that buying a Zero is NOT a risk.
Or, conversely, extend their buyback - and remanufacture their bought-back bikes. Those frames are sturdy and well-balanced - put new power and batteries on them! Sell them less-expensively, and get new buyers in the door.
They can make money a little at a time expanding their customer base; or they can work on fleecing techno-geeks and Early Adopters and then when they run out of gulls, just close the doors. Maybe they don't believe in the long-term prospects of this product.
That's a shame, if true, because I DO. The motorcycle is the ideal platform for electric vehicle power. Compare all the hassle of a gas bike to the ease, cleanliness and straightforward performance of the Zero...NO...CONTEST.
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Thanks to Pinaz and all the contributors for a very illuminating article.
If Zero was a normal company run on commerial lines " for profit" then they would have adapted or died by now, however they are continuously bankrolled by Investors and hence no matter how bad they do there are no commercial consequences for their actions. They can carry on with engineering bloopers and treat their customers like something stuck to the bottom of their shoe and it makes no difference because they all get their pay check at the end of the month regardless. They live in a commercial twilight zone where the normal rules of business do not apply hence why everyone here is perplexed by their seemingly illogical and uncaring actions.
The 3 phase AC drivetrain has transformed range to a point where an electric motorcycle is now a viable proposition to some with enough money but the technology is so experimental that even the manufacturers can't make it reliable and use the customers as a fee paying R&D test bed for air cooled dogma. At some point battery technology ( Lithium Sulphur ?) will advance to the stage where DC systems will become viable again and someone will make a simple and reliable motorcycle at significantly less cost that we can all fix when it goes wrong!
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If Zero was a normal company run on commerial lines " for profit" then they would have adapted or died by now, however they are continuously bankrolled by Investors and hence no matter how bad they do there are no commercial consequences for their actions. They can carry on with engineering bloopers and treat their customers like something stuck to the bottom of their shoe and it makes no difference because they all get their pay check at the end of the month regardless. They live in a commercial twilight zone where the normal rules of business do not apply hence why everyone here is perplexed by their seemingly illogical and uncaring actions.
What on earth are you talking about? What company has done or could do better than Zero at any of this? We're lucky to have electric motorcycle products at all for under $30,000, which still wouldn't turn a profit.
The choice right now is between a flawed but delivering 10 year old vehicle startup company and a handful of boutique small batch manufacturers who also aren't turning a profit, offer even less support, and charge a much higher price.
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Plus, I continue to note that even the major multi-billion dollar motorcycle companies have yet to enter the market, or even to show off a $$$ concept bike with better performance or range than the production Zero. If it was easy to make an electric motorcycle that had better performance than the Zero, to say nothing of doing so at a similar price, I am sure that they would do so, if only for "political" reasons to gain "global warming" green points and perhaps stockpiling "carbon credits" to sell or trade in the future. The fact that this hasn't happened, leads me to believe that developing a "Zero beater", at a price that most consumers can afford, is not all that easy. ;)
To tell you the truth, I am amazed that Zero is still in business, as most startups building commercial products seem to fail after a few years, if they even last that long. While Zero may not have the established distribution and customer service network that the major manufacturers have developed after being in business for over 60 years, I really can't fault their progress over the past 10 years. The important thing is that they continue to improve every year. :)
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Based on what I read here and what I see in my 2016, Zero has made enormous progress in the last few years.
- Charging issues resolved
- Effective waterproofing
- Upgradeable firmware
- Chain/swingarm problems resolved with trouble-free belt drive
- Sound chain adjuster
- Long battery warranty, 5yr
- Long tolerance for non-charging
- Good console/controls (button debouncing, etc)
The biggest question marks in my mind are
- Long term parts availability
- Resale value, as I plan to upgrade annually
I've had a wonderful experience and such pleasure that I feel Zero will be at the forefront of an exponential curve (though it may need to ride out any hiccups in the general economy).