ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: mguw on August 30, 2015, 03:25:37 PM
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Hi guys
I have my fx5.7 for one week now and really enjoy it for my commute. Lots of fun.. (Coming from a duke 690)
Yesterday I took her to the cross track and after a whoops wheelie the ABS got screwed up and I had no brakes at all at the end of the straight line! I ran straight in the bushes!
I could feel the hard lever and vibrating action for the ABS and no braking power at all. Neither Front nor rear also rear is understandable.
Usually I would disconnect the ABS but this time I forgot....
Did somebody already experience that? I am scared now it could happen under other circumstances.
Is there a way to disconnect it permanently?
A+ Marcel
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That's interesting! I've had my FX for a few weeks now, but have always turned ABS off for dirt. I'd like to have the option of having it "off" by default.
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If it fails thats a safety issue, it should not fail at all.
sure on dirt it may not be useful and be disabled but it should not cause brake failure.
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Are you sure it was the ABS and not a different part? I thought ABS systems were usually incapable of completely bypassing the brakes as a failsafe?
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As a total guess, could some air have got in the lines from the whoops?
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I went looking at Bosch and there are a range of ABS solutions available and the 2015 FX manual is not much more informative to which system is installed or define the operations.
There are some "old threads" on other forums (some ABS phobic hyperbole) but this one from 2007 resonated:
http://forum.motorcycle-usa.com/default.aspx?f=17&m=377069 (http://forum.motorcycle-usa.com/default.aspx?f=17&m=377069)
Bottom line, this ABS is a "linked" type in that the brakes aren't linked but the ABS system is; most common fault is when the rear suspension undergoes substantial compression followed by rebound...the ABS "reads" that as low traction and DECREASES FRONT BRAKE PRESSURE! It is clearly in the Manual...and BMW is stonewalling.
I'm not finding much Bosch collaboration from the time, and guessing some changes took place in the technology over the past several years or perhaps the owners manuals have faded on the intent of off-road usage.
I'll keep searching.
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ABS on motorbikes is a seriously dumb idea, especially on dirt, but the f*@%tards in Brussels has legislated that all motorbikes must have it.
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I talked with Zero at length about this and the end result was them calling Bosch and them (Bosch) saying that it is too great of a relative speed difference between the 2 wheels. There is nothing wrong with the system and this is normal behavior. They told me that they would be rewriting the manual to include this detail in the future. I was a bit surprised myself when this happened but now that I know it is normal it does not bother me at all.
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Thanks for all the answers
I did some rethinking about this and believe it is normal.
Think about trying to decelerate in dirt without stalling the rear, it is impossible. If then the front is released it is just not working.
I will do some trials on purpose to confirm.
Bottom line is don't forget to switch off this %@#& ABS
I agree with Justin, abs and motorcycle doesn't match
A+ Marcel
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Hi
I made some tests today, even on the road you can fool the ABS.
Try this:
Brake hard on the front without rear and then hit hard the rear, the ABS will release your front for no reason!
Or this
Break hard on rear and then your front will be very weak..
ZERO , Please give us an option to disconnect this sh%t permanently, it is Non sense on a dirt bike.
A+ Marcel
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That seems like a very bad logic for the ABS! Probably because, as someone mentioned above, the front and rear ABS are linked and not independent... Cost-cutting?
I wonder what happens if both the front and rear brakes are squeezed hard (to lock) on dry or wet (not dirt)?
Oh, and I don't think "non ABS" is necessarily better anymore (or at least decent ABS systems are very good today)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBhxjIkRFCw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBhxjIkRFCw)
https://rideapart.com/articles/motorcycle-abs-work?page=3 (https://rideapart.com/articles/motorcycle-abs-work?page=3)
Hi
I made some tests today, even on the road you can fool the ABS.
Try this:
Brake hard on the front without rear and then hit hard the rear, the ABS will release your front for no reason!
Or this
Break hard on rear and then your front will be very weak..
ZERO , Please give us an option to disconnect this sh%t permanently, it is Non sense on a dirt bike.
A+ Marcel
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I wonder what happens if both the front and rear brakes are squeezed hard (to lock) on dry or wet (not dirt)?
I made some hard braking tests today on an excellent dry road.
Stop distance from 90km/h by squeezing all I can both brake with ABS is 34m... Squeezing only front is about the same.
But when I disconnect the ABS I am able to stop in 21m if I do a good job...
So from now on I will disconnect ABS every time which is a pain in the ass...
Next rain, I'll try on the wet...
A+ Marcel
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Can the front & rear ABS wheel sensors be unplugged? It seems this works on many cars, perhaps it's the same with the Zero ABS.
ray
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I wonder what happens if both the front and rear brakes are squeezed hard (to lock) on dry or wet (not dirt)?
That's really disappointing! Or something is wrong...A good ABS should not have such a big penalty (if any) on dry road braking!
... on an excellent dry road.
Stop distance from 90km/h by squeezing all I can both brake with ABS is 34m... Squeezing only front is about the same.
But when I disconnect the ABS I am able to stop in 21m if I do a good job...
A+ Marcel
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Hi
I tested today on a wet road. There the ABS is nice, I have to admit. But forget the rear brake. Only rear is like no braking at all, no surprise here, but don't use it if you need to brake hard. Use Front only, because as soon as you hit rear, front gets weaker.
A+ Marcel
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Seems a very poor ABS system if it ends up disabling braking and also much longer stopping distance than manual braking.
Each wheel should be monitored independent and only decrease brake input if locked up.
No way should it release brakes total.
Would be interesting what KTM and BMW etc use on their bikes.
Zero may be liable if ABS cause crashes or injuries.
Hope Zero and Bosch improve the system.
is the S,DS , SR also the same?
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I agree, this ABS sounds more dangerous, not safer, as it should be. I think I'll continue to turn it off, even though it's a pain to have to do it every ride; I end up having to cycle the mode switch every time too, because the adj and mode switch are used for the "off" sequence! I hope there'll be some way to permanently disable it.
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Could you just re-hose the brakes and leave the ABS valve out of circuit? Or disconnect it electronically and replace with a resistor.
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I would not recommned disabling it permanently, I may void your insurance and also make YOU liable if you crash into others or injure others.
You should be contacting ZERO and your government motor vehicle safety and traffic authority and ADVISING them of the SAFETY issue.
If it not working in a safe manner or meet its desired design it should be recalled.
Is it only on Dirt when it fails? how about wet roads? Painted lines?
As a motorcyclist we taught to avoid or be careful riding on those things.
Does the ABS fail on them too?
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Seems a very poor ABS system if it ends up disabling braking and also much longer stopping distance than manual braking.
Each wheel should be monitored independent and only decrease brake input if locked up.
No way should it release brakes total.
Would be interesting what KTM and BMW etc use on their bikes.
Zero may be liable if ABS cause crashes or injuries.
Hope Zero and Bosch improve the system.
is the S,DS , SR also the same?
BMW use Bosch as well, I know BMW riders who have complained about the system on their bikes, dunno about KTM.
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In the zero presentation, it is written Bosch abs gen 9 and on the Bosch Web site it is the latest http://www.bosch-motorcycle.com/en/de/fahrsicherheit_fuer_zweiraeder/motorrad_abs/technische_evolution_von_motorrad_abs/technische_evolution_von_motorrad_abs.html
I don't think it is bad, we just need to be aware of the limitations, and forget rear brake in slippery conditions where it doesn't help anyway
A+ Marcel
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Does the ABS integrate with Regenerative braking? I would think strong regen could be enough to send the rear sliding in certain conditions.
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No I don't think it is integrated. The regeneration cannot stall because if stopped there is no regeneration torque anymore, which makes it an excellent stabilisation on dirt. I did put it on maximum
A+ Marcel
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No I don't think it is integrated. The regeneration cannot stall because if stopped there is no regeneration torque anymore, which makes it an excellent stabilisation on dirt. I did put it on maximum
A+ Marcel
This is NOT correct and you are mistaken; I know because I have done it. You can stall the rear wheel using too much regen IF you know what you are doing with settings or if you on a slippery surface. If you are going along at 30mph and have instant-on high power regen set your tire will initially decel so fast that the wheel will skid. You are correct that you can not stop the wheel from turning but it only needs to be turning at a very very slow rate...say 6 RPM or once around every 10 seconds. Please make sure you fact check yourself people do believe everything they read on the internet.
Also I hate to sound rude or anything but I must point out that the ABS system is a very GOOD system. First of all it works when it counts. I have been saved by the ABS system more than once already. It is a SAFETY system not a toy. If you are expecting it to work regardless of conditions and the driver then you want something more than can be installed on a motorcycle. Need I remind you that your motorcycle has freaking anti-lock-brakes! Think about the implications of that. Your on a road and suddenly there is a gravel on a turn, you panic and you grab a fist full of "wohh Nellie". On any other bike you go down because of your panicked reaction to the gravel. On this bike you just shit your pants and get to go home and clean up. Is it perfect. NO. Are there better systems. Yes. Well it save your life? Probably.
I should point out that Zero does monitor these forums and does take posters thoughts into account. I suggest that if you really have a problem with the system they are using that you take it up with them...directly. I hate to be so rude but you have 2 pages of bashing this system and you want to remove it because it isn't what you expect when hitting the gas and brake at the same time or because it does not work the way you want. I was surprised when my ABS disabled its self on dirt but I went to Zero and they worked with me on a common goal of getting to the bottom of the problem. What I am saying is rather than bitch about it go talk to Zero, they are great people and care about their product. Maybe you can work with them on a custom ABS system that punches you in the balls every-time you do something stupid so you don't do it again or something like that.
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Hello
I am not bashing Zero which motorcycle I love but the bosh system.
I am only speaking of my own experience and not of things I read somewhere.
Fact is that one time I did a straight in the bushes on dirt because of the system and second fact is that I am able to stop on dry from 90km/h in 21m without and in 34m only with ABS.
If you are not a good at braking, I agree with you ABS is better than you
Regards
Marcel
A+ Marcel