ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: CrashCash on February 27, 2015, 04:12:52 AM
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OK, 2 weeks ago I installed a power tank in my SR. The instructions were excellent, the hardest part was getting the data cable connector under the frame rail.
After I put it all together, I got the "BMS startup error - reset with button" and I found here on the forum that there are 2 buttons you need to hold down for 10 seconds. After I did that, no problem and I rode around fine for a week.
Sunday, I got the startup error again, so I turned the bike off and did the double button reset again. This time, when I switched it on, I get error 25/49 flashing (contactor open) and the blink-blink blink that means "contactor error"
The power tank LED activity is fine, but the main battery does nothing. No contactor click or LEDs. I think I do hear faint clicking from the controller under the seat. This is pretty consistent. The estimated range is 20-something miles, so I think it only sees the power tank. If I charge it, I hear the contactor in the power tank click, but nothing from the main battery.
I unplugged the power tank and reinstalled the loopback jack on the data connector. No joy.
I assume the silence from my dealership means they're waiting on Zero. These are folks that have had trouble putting on a tire the right way round, so I expect it'll be a bit of rough sailing. I'm being nice and not calling every day at the moment.
Wheeeeee!
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CrashCash,
Hopefully your dealer and my dealer don't have the same point of contact at Zero. (I live in NC) The "contactor open" seems to be like a general fault code and it can be hard to figure out what the actual problem is. The problems you are having with your Power Tank are different than mine but mine took 6 weeks to solve and that was only after Zero sent a rep out to work on the bike. Your dealer will probably have to hook up your bike to their computer so as to send Zero the detailed log data. While this does help sometimes the problem may not show up in the logs. Mine didn't. Have you connected a smart phone to your SR? With the details on the Zero app it would be really obvious if your bike is seeing the main battery. Good luck. I know what you are going through.
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I have mentioned this before, but when my power tank was installed, the computer wouldn't connect with the new module. First the problem was a bad power tank and then (when things still wouldn't work right) the Zero tech located a connector that had a single bent pin. Once the pin was straightened out and the connector reattached, my bike has run perfectly ever since. So I would carefully check all of the wiring connectors that you came in contact with when you installed the power tank to see if one of the pins was bent when the connecters were plugged into each other.
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BMS possibly broke on the main battery after connecting the PT?
Data Cable have been damaged?
That's my list of possible causes for now.
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OK, 2 weeks ago I installed a power tank in my SR.
Obviously I'm not up to speed....how is it that YOU installed your power tank? Last I heard, that was an "installed by dealers only" option. How difficult was it to do and how much cheaper was it to do it yourself? Could I also do it on a 2014 or is it only possible on the 2015?
I'm an EE so if it's possible to do at home, I should be able to do it. I'm still not entirely sure it's worth the money for me, but if I can save some bucks doing it myself, it might just be.
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Take the seal off the front of the battery case where the BMS is and there are two buttons to reset the BMS ;)
Not sure if it is the same with the 2014+ though.
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Do you have a ODBII to usb connector? Could pull down the BMS information.
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Good to know it's not a bad manipulation.
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Yes we need DoctorBass input here. If it's cheap, we can try to replace it ourselves.
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The dealer is replacing it under warranty. I'm just hoping it's not the usual 2 month delivery time.
Zero are improving, my motor was sent out within a week.
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It is not difficult to replace the BMS card... "if" the tech has done it before.
It's also pretty easy and straight forward to upload the newer firmware.
I would suggest calling your dealer once a week for a status update.
Keep the fire lit under them so (hopefully) they do the same to Zero.
If it drags on call Zero Service for a status update.
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I would suggest calling your dealer once a week for a status update.
Keep the fire lit under them so (hopefully) they do the same to Zero.
If it drags on call Zero Service for a status update.
Ha. My boss has told me to do the same thing, since he knows I don't like dealing with people and I'd let it slide. I have been driving by since I can't hear over the phone, plus I found out in person the service manager will actually show me what's going on.
And no, they lost their "Zero tech" so he's got another "guy who's good with computers" working on it. Oh boy. I just have lots of warm fuzzies hearing that.
Your experience seems colored by your manner of interaction. I will not claim that your dealer sounds competent [you are our only witness here], but it does appear that you have issues getting the best out of people.
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Yup. The quicker those useless layabouts fix that American-made toy piece of shit, the quicker we don't have to deal with each other again.
And just like that, the last bit of sympathy I had for you just evaporated.
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This morning it was snowing, and raining ... so I took some time to add some tape under the bike between the size six controller heat sink plate not covered by my heat sink and the bottom of the tail. Duck tape of course, since it can fix everything.
I did this to make sure the water coming from the tire didn't end up on top the controller and inside the 35pin connector.
It worked for half my trip. Where as without it I would have lasted less than a mile on the road before getting the red / green light blink pattern.
I will have to make a cover for the top of that connector now. But I should also engineer a easy way to remove and replace the seat to make taking it off easier as well.
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I'm thinking of molding a hugger extender for my rear mudguard. I'm hoping that should keep some of that filthy wet stuff away from the works. :)
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After reading this and hearing about the BMS boards I would like to see if someone has one good or bad (preferably bad) that they would be willing to send me. I can look at it and see what the mode of failure is and maybe come up with a fix. Alternatively some high quality pictures would go a long way as well.
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And just like that, the last bit of sympathy I had for you just evaporated.
It occurs to me that a little bit of civility, especially on a forum like this one, can go a long ways. Exuberant enthusiasm often doesn't come across very well online, and sarcasm is almost always missed. There's no tone of voice or body motions to convey those kinds of subtleties. Earlier I pretty much got called an idiot for expecting to be able to hose-wash my bike, but I don't take offense -- even if the person seriously thinks I'm an idiot for wanting to be able to wash my bike conventionally, that's his problem, not mine. But more likely, he's just trying to make a point, and it doesn't come across very well in this strictly written medium.
Try to relax and contribute in a constructive, helpful way. We're all here as early adopters to help advance the field wherever we can.
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To be honest if I was in this situation I would call every day. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it impolite? Maybe. Does it get results? Yes. I have found over the years that if you do not keep a constant pressure on a company to help you they will just be helping the guy who IS screaming at them the loudest. "Squeaky wheel gets the grease" is VERY true. You did not buy this thing so it could sit in someones garage while some guy pokes at it with a stick and sometimes you need to remind them of that. Don't be afraid to get your hands dirty on these matters! Can't get results from the dealer? Call Zero and politely demand to know what is being done. If they don't know then find someone who does know. Parts are being shipped to the dealer? Great, what is the tracking number? Don't have one? Why not; get me one. Make them work for their 17,000 dollars of your money.
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Only slightly off of the subject:, I was bemused when last year I read Consumer Reports article describing the results of their survey of over 4000 motorcycle owners. They discovered that 75% of Harley and BMW owners had experienced problems with their motorcycles, compared with something like 10% for the Japanese brands (Yamaha having the fewest problems) and were generally unsatisfied with the build quality of their bikes. However, almost all of these BMW and H-D owners loved their bikes and would buy another one again. All of which goes to show you that building a perfectly running and reliable motorcycle does not necessarily increase sales, customer loyalty, or profits. ::) Go figure!
Sometimes I get the impression that humans are not quite ready for the modern world. ;) (I know that I am not.) :o
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Maybe Zero knew that making a completely reliable motorcycle would make it boring. How fun would a day be without a good breakdown in the rain?
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... I pretty much got called an idiot for expecting to be able to hose-wash my bike...
I didn't call you an idiot. "Not using common sense" and "having unrealistic expectations" was more or less how I described your post. If you equate that to being called an idiot, that's not my "problem".
Try to relax and contribute in a constructive, helpful way. We're all here as early adopters to help advance the field wherever we can.
Good advice. I'd suggest "being open to the viewpoints of more than a few people with considerable experience" is a good place to start for "civility".
As far as an example of someone with considerable experience, please note Richard's comment above, for some sense of reality for your expectations. God forbid a cutting edge, in-development, hand-built product shouldn't live up to the expectations of the entitled consumer, though. (That was sarcasm, can you tell? Or was it Irony? If you have to tell someone you're being ironic, is it still ironic? ::))
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42 days (6 weeks) since I ordered my replacement mirrors.
25 days since my SR was towed in, so it's been in the shop 1/3rd of the time I've had it. At least it's got company there with 5 other dead Zeros...
Except for an ECU recall on my FJR, none of my Japanese bikes have been in the shop since 1986, and the ECU swap took 5 minutes because I removed all the bodywork & stuff in the way before driving it over.
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Hey, I could ride the SR up to Sanford for good German food... oh wait, no, it's still in the shop.
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Ideally time spent in dealer work shop or waiting for parts underwarranty, should be added to your warranty period.
if it takes 2 months to repair then 2 months should be added to your warranty.
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Now 58 days, so it's been in the shop longer than it's been on the road.
The shop manager complains how often he's called Zero and no one ever calls him back.
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If it were me, this just kicked into the "bullshit" level. Or, to quote that old comment: "What we have here is a failure to communicate".
My immediate reaction is your dealer has pushed this to the back of the shop and doesn't want to deal with it, but that's just my gut feeling on it. In any case, I can't imagine that Zero, at the corporate level, would want this kind of lack of customer service to go unaddressed.
I've dealt with a few instances of this kind of thing before, and actually been thanked by the companies involved. Here's how I approached it.
First, in your communication, remember my Dad's advice: Always write an angry letter so that they have to read it twice, or maybe three times, before they really understand how pissed off you are. ;) Second, write actual letters, on paper. Send them via a service that requires a signature - Express Mail or FedEx works fine, but Certified Mail is good too.
Write the letter to the highest-up Zero guy you can find the name of. I believe there is a VP of Customer Service who was just anointed to the post a few months ago, but I'd have to check. CC the owner of the shop at your local dealer - if it's a small shop, that's easy, if it's a bigger company that owns a bunch of local shops like we have here in Boston, it's harder to get a name. And finally, and most important, CC your state's Attorney General's Dept of Consumer Affairs, and if necessary, open a case. If you have a friend who's an attorney, CC them too. No comments necessary in the text, just show the CCs at the bottom of the letter.
Feel free to PM me for coaching on this if you have questions. I'd even write the letter for you, it's good anger management therapy. :D
The letter needs to state, clearly and professionally, when you bought the bike, the steps you've taken to get it fixed, the communications you've had, the degree to which you're displeased, the remedies you'd consider acceptable, and the steps you'll take if the situation is not addressed. I'd consult your state's "Lemon Law" if you have one, too. Imagine yourself not you, but your lawyer writing this for you. It helps manage the tone.
The first time I did this it was purely to get the whole thing off my chest. I just was so pissed off I had to do something, and get someone's attention, for some stuff that the dealer did that was just off-the-hook BS. I got a phone call from the VP of the company whose product it was - the guy I cc'd. They replaced the product, and refunded the purchase price too. (This was a $2k product) And this was before the internet. :D It took me about an hour to write the letter, find the addresses and copy and mail it.
You may have a dealer who's slacking, you may have a sticky issue, you may have service techs at Zero who are slacking, but I'm pretty certain that if the VPs find out about it, and that you're talking about it online, they're going to fix it.
(edit: I remember now what the manufacturer's VP told me on the phone. "I really appreciate you bringing this to my attention. Whenever we talk to our dealers, or visit them, they never tell us about this stuff. Everything always sounds perfect."
I'm pretty sure the comment about "unicorns and rainbows" that I recall may be my own memory's embellishment. :D )
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Good advice, Ted. My daughter is the sole customer complaint department in a small company that sells stainless (Chinese :o ) steel lunchboxes. She spends a lot of time trying to sort out complaints and gives out a lot of new products for free to replace the defective ones, without asking for anything in return. With few exceptions, the customer is always right and it is a lot easier to make them happy than to have to spend the time to deal with an unhappy customer. (Don't forget, time costs money.) Plus, what with the internet, an unhappy customer can loose a lot of potential sales for your business.
So happy customers are better for business than unhappy customers. There is no reason for any company to not at least try to correct problems if they want to continue to stay in business. And if they can't resolve the issue immediately, the customer should always stay in the loop and be informed exactly what they are doing to correct the problem and when they will contact them again. It is only common courtesy.
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OMFG. My dealer actually called me instead of my weekly trip in for a status update. I'm in shock.
So to recap, the 1st thing Zero did was "needs new BMS board & firmware updates" however that didn't help. And was a while ago.
The voicemail from the service manager said his tech was on the phone with Zero for about 4 hours, and apparently they've found a bad wiring harness - a replacement for which is now on order.
Progress!
Actually, I realized this has a lot of parallels with the small computer hardware companies I've worked at. One made hardened CDROM drive enclosures when CDROMS were $350 instead of $20, and another made graphics cards for SUN workstations.
Their "tech support" was whichever engineers got roped in on the hot seat for the week. The engineers hated it and the customers hated it, and they got the exact same complaints we've made about Zero. They finally established bona-fide tech support departments staffed with patient blokes that didn't really mind the same stupid questions day in and day out, and were diligent at following up on issues. Customers were much happier.
I expect with Zero's double sales last year, they're struggling though the same transition (or should be)
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Cool.
And yes it does. Phone tech support is really hard to do well. You almost never want an engineer doing it, due respect to the engineers out there (I come from a long line of engineers, so I get to say that). It was part of my job for several years, as a dealer, and I was talking to people I'd sold product to, so often knew pretty well. (I realized I had an almost photographic visual memory of menu trees as a result of that. :D ) The guys who were good at it at the manufacturer were amazing, but they almost never spoke to the client, that was our job.
And I think you're dead nuts on. I know for a fact that "department" has been in flux (pardon the pun) at Zero, and it seems like it's possibly the last priority for tech start-ups, to set up customer service. I honestly think that in the mind of a startup engineer, their stuff breaking, or flawed, and fixing it is something they don't want to think about, so until the company gets to a certain maturity, they just don't.
...which is part of the reason I suggested the steps I did. Management needs to know, at a very personal level, and then the problem (with the company, not your bike) gets fixed. And again, you're dead nuts on - the company, and the owners will be in a world of hurt if they don't do better soon.
I had the misfortune of trying to help a friend with, lets loosely call it an EV, a product that was funded on Kickstarter. They were so busy trying to build the things they had no idea what to do (and no resources set aside to do it) when customers needed help. One phone call to the "head of engineering", a few emailed photos and ten minutes later and I was able to get the thing running again. This was after a month of BS.
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Ted speaks wisely of the need for skilled Technical Support.
He's also spot on with his comment about start up companies not putting enough emphasis in developing and staffing a competent support division.
For whatever (odd) reason management decisions seem to be made that put more resources into R&D and fewer resources into actually supporting the customers who are confronted with issues. Somewhat understandable for a startup but, IMO, still flawed logic.
Customer Satisfaction is everything. If product issues aren't addressed quickly and decisively you get irate customers. And in this day and age of fast internet communication the word gets out.
Coming from 25+ years of technical support (telecom and IT/Cisco systems) I know well that keeping the customers happy, the product working and providing feedback back to engineering on the issues is a very critical role for any/every company.
The most difficult functions of CS are learning tact to handle displeased customers, knowing the product enough to quickly troubleshoot the problem and providing constant feedback to the customers (and engineering) about the status of the issues.
Communication really is key. I've handled many problems that took a long time to isolate and resolve. For the most part everyone stayed calm as long as regular status updates were provided.
Being a stockholder in Zero I truly do hope they work diligently on improving their Customer Support Team. I believe this will only happen if more resources are provided to grow the CS Team in both technical expertise as well as head count.
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Ted speaks wisely of the need for skilled Technical Support.
He's also spot on with his comment about start up companies not putting enough emphasis in developing and staffing a competent support division.
For whatever (odd) reason management decisions seem to be made that put more resources into R&D and fewer resources into actually supporting the customers who are confronted with issues. Somewhat understandable for a startup but, IMO, still flawed logic.
Customer Satisfaction is everything. If product issues aren't addressed quickly and decisively you get irate customers. And in this day and age of fast internet communication the word gets out.
Coming from 25+ years of technical support (telecom and IT/Cisco systems) I know well that keeping the customers happy, the product working and providing feedback back to engineering on the issues is a very critical role for any/every company.
The most difficult functions of CS are learning tact to handle displeased customers, knowing the product enough to quickly troubleshoot the problem and providing constant feedback to the customers (and engineering) about the status of the issues.
Communication really is key. I've handled many problems that took a long time to isolate and resolve. For the most part everyone stayed calm as long as regular status updates were provided.
Being a stockholder in Zero I truly do hope they work diligently on improving their Customer Support Team. I believe this will only happen if more resources are provided to grow the CS Team in both technical expertise as well as head count.
Wow!!!
I have this feeling I have met you before on one of my numerous trips to zero
Pm me your name?
I couldn't agree with what you said more! Having watched so many local people, friends; friends of friends work at zero and say similar things.....
It all leads back to one thing
The main investors aren't bike people
Aren't even ev people
They are a headge fund that's especially good at getting investors money, not necessarily creating a high level of return!!! Look at everything invus owns, none of which are real profitable, they just trudge along..... So does zero
To compare them to a real company look at Ducati owned by vw. They see their objective and go for it, they have customer service and a system for it, all coming from the very top.... Invus lolly gags around. So do ALL of their company's. To me it's a shame because they have no real driving force behind the company!
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Ducati factory. Yes much bigger.... But per person more people that work at Ducati own one and ride it to work.... They have policies for giving used and demo bikes to their best employees, not sell them to the public....
For instance
Ducati parking lot. Tons of bikes
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o237/SC1975Silent/B0B999F2-E4BA-4E50-8AB0-D3B94503EE32_zps5dizqe39.png) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/SC1975Silent/media/B0B999F2-E4BA-4E50-8AB0-D3B94503EE32_zps5dizqe39.png.html)
Zero parking lot.... Not a single bike..... Embarrassing
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o237/SC1975Silent/98F2AEF7-6C10-4F5B-8DC1-9E3A144163F4_zpsms5klmwj.png) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/SC1975Silent/media/98F2AEF7-6C10-4F5B-8DC1-9E3A144163F4_zpsms5klmwj.png.html)
Yes not super accurate but if you go to Ducati monday there is going to be 20+ bikes easily of people who rode there.... At zero there will be less than 5... I'm sure 2 will be the cs bikes sitting outside the cs entrance like they always do, like a display at a dealership, but they only sell bikes there... No service at the factory.....
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So as of a couple weeks ago, they were replacing a wiring harness. I went in today and discovered it's the ENTIRE wiring harness. The tech's spent a couple days so far pulling the old one out. I saw the new one laying on a table.
But before that, Zero called back and said "don't replace the wiring harness, replace this electrical module" which they had to wait for, and then that didn't work, so they're going ahead with the new harness.
And sure, Ducati can afford to give their employees nearly free used bikes. They've got enough bucks to pour down the drain on their MotoGP bike that was killing rider careers until a couple weeks ago when it finally started winning races again. Plus Ducati has the advantage of ICE where you can listen to it and go, "oh bad plug" or "the timing is off" - you flip the switch on an EV and it just doesn't go. That's the only symptom, and like a dead PC, it could be **anything**
Zero is still the student in college scraping the $3 for a McDonald's burger so he can eat today, where Ducati was 75 years ago. I'm hoping in a year or two as sales increase they can afford more tech staff.
Their salesforce portal is mostly a tool for ordering parts, filing service tickets, and a repository for PDFs like "how to install [$FOO]" but nothing approaching a coherent service manual or troubleshooting guide.
While I was in there, I showed the service manager a couple tricks for getting around in the app that he didn't know.
Oh and the service manager said "you know, he's got to be careful replacing that harness, there is still power in that battery" and I said, "yeah LOTS AND LOTS, look at the thumb size cables going to the sevcon there..."
"the sev---what?"
"er, that's the motor controller, made by sevcon"
"sevcon?"
So I told him who Sevcon are, and what other stuff uses them. Sigh.
I pointed out the charger sitting under the frame. He didn't know that either. Double sigh.
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Whelp! Dat wuz it! The tech replaced the wiring harness (about 6 days faster than I would have done) and it's back in the air.
The tech spent 22 hours working on it, all told, and it was 80 days in the shop. The last time I rode it according to my logs was Feb 22nd, so it has been exactly 3 months.
I rode the hell out of it and put it on the charger, and it charges too. Of course the final ride home was in a pretty good rain, 'cuz FLORIDA SUNSHINE, doncha ya know.
It isn't entirely silent any more, all the way home you could hear "IT WORKS, IT WORKS" noises.
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hope they extend your warranty by 3 months. Or did you have loaner bike?.
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No, unfortunately all the bikes they could have loaned me had been crashed on test drives. I just rode my FJR.
I did worry when I first saw the line of dead Zeros before I knew that. Now I see why they don't normally do test drives. Damn. What the hell do these people do? Re-enact "Fast & Furious" apparently.
I rode it from SE Orlando to Sanford and back doing 65 on the expressway and I still had 13% so the new power tank is definitely working. I took the opportunity to figure out how to hook up the Elcons I bought 3 months ago from Hollywood Electrics. At first it looked like the siderack bracket blocked the connector, but it actually helps you blind-navigate in once you're familiar with things.
I rode at 65 for an hour and the motor was just warm to the touch. That's serious efficiency.
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Oh and FYI, it cost $3800 to fix. that was $1800 in parts and $2000 in labor. Under warranty of course, but that 22hrs of labor was a chunk of change.
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I did worry when I first saw the line of dead Zeros before I knew that. Now I see why they don't normally do test drives. Damn. What the hell do these people do? Re-enact "Fast & Furious" apparently.
Underestimate the instatorque, ''Oh a sport mode, lets see what will happen when I throttle fully''