ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: LiveandLetDrive on September 30, 2014, 11:59:51 AM
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You all asleep? ;)
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/motorcycles/ (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/motorcycles/)
I'll leave the analysis to everybody else!
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great, ABS!!!!
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Not just ABS, they've changed the brakes as well. Gone from Nissin to Bosch, and finally replaced the rear brake too, that's potentially good news.
Bigger battery by 1.1kWh, Power tank capacity looks unchanged.
Sadly no increase in charger capacity. That's a disappointment.
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not exactly pass from 185 to 188kg 3kg more
the back suspension look prety good lot bigger
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ABS was the key change delivered for 2015.
10% more battery and ABS for 3kg more weight is impressive. Maybe they lost some weight in the wheels and shocks?
Good to see the Pirellis on there - much better than the IRCs.
Brakes are now all J juan - not sure whether that's actually a downgrade for the front as the j juan rear on the 2014 is not so good.
Price increase under USD500 not bad considering the cost of ABS and other upgrades.
For the 2014 owners, hopefully there will be options to retrofit ABS or the Showa rear shock.
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Main story seems to be that Zero has access to a higher tier of suppliers. Fast Ace suspension replaced with Showa components, Bosch ABS brake systems (rotors are J-Juan in front and rear, vs Nissin front and J-Juan rear in 2014). IRC tires replaced with Pirellis. New mirror design.
I think Zero finally has components that are appropriate for the price. Which is good, because every model was bumped upwards by $350.
The FX soldiers on with no changes other than the components above. The ZF2.8 modules are identical to 2014.
In addition to the component changes, the S/DS/SR bikes all have 10% more capacity for the non-power tank bikes. Like the 2010 => 2011 capacity increase, Zero is probably using a cell configuration with 10% more amp-hours at the same voltage. This add little weight - about 10 pounds - and range improves by about 10%. Not bad.
The largest Zero now has 94 miles of constant 70 mph range, and can ride for > 2 hours at constant 55 mph. Incremental gains over 2014, but the increase in range is essentially "free".
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Some interesting comparisons:
The ZF8.5 is replaced with the ZF9.4. An interesting point of comparison is the 2012 S ZF9; the smallest 2015 Zero S now has more capacity than the largest 2012 Zero S. The 2015 bike weighs about 30 more pounds and has about the same city range, but component quality is much higher, it's much quicker (~10s 0-60 vs 4.8s), it charges more quickly, and highway-only range is about 30% higher.
Oh, and the 2015 bike costs $650 less than the 2012. Big big strides for Zero in a small period of time.
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Unfortunately, the big loser is the charging. Zero still has no effective solution for high-power J1772 charging, though they continue to sell the $300 J1772 adapter. The expensive and limited compatibility CHAdeMO charging accessory is still available for the 2013-2014 bikes, but is not listed as compatible with the 2015 bikes.
Zero has clarified the number of accessory 1 kW chargers that can be slaved together to charge more quickly: the FX ZF2.8 can take 1 external charger, the FX ZF5.7 can take 3 external chargers, and all S/DS/SR bikes can take 4 external chargers. This is probably aimed at fleet sales; the Zero S bikes can add 52 miles of mixed riding with a 1 hour charge, allowing a police officer to return to home base for paperwork or lunch and pick up significant additional charge.
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I hope hope hope that Zero has spent engineering time to make its 2015 bikes bulletproof from a reliability and durability standpoint, as well as time grooming and training their dealer network who are now going on their third year of this generation of bike. User forums will always over-represent failures, and I suspect the 2014s are more reliable than the 2013s, but I hope to see a marked reduction in errors for 2015.
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So who's going to buy the 2015 bikes, and why?
* some 2012 and 2013 owners will upgrade, especially as their bikes fall out of warranty.
* higher-spec components will draw some who turned up their noses previously
* ABS is a big win for rider safety
* Zero is whittling away at single-charge range anxiety
* the smallest S bike is a straight upgrade for 2012 S ZF9 owners (like myself), and has very useful range for almost any rider
* the middle S bike offers most of the range of the 2014 S ZF11.4 + Power Tank model at a much lower cost/weight and while preserving the "tank bag"
* the largest S bike offers significant single-charge range, at significant cost
Who's not going to buy?
* Zero dropped their entry-level XU bike for 2014, and increases prices across the board for 2015. I think the overall value is higher than it's ever been, but there are effectively no routes to owning a new Zero that doesn't start at $12k.
* Expecting faster J1772 charging? Go straight to Harlan @ HollywoodElectrics and/or Brammo.
* Looking for faster DC Quick Charging? Try again in 2016; if the 2015 bikes are like the 2011, then perhaps the 2016 bikes will introduce a higher voltage battery and significant motor / controller changes.
* Styling changes minor, limited to wheels, mirrors, and the red rear shock.
* Anyone who can't sit on a bike at their local dealer probably isn't going to buy. It seems Zero has been signing up more dealers though; and the Harley Project Livewire tour has significantly raised awareness of electric bikes. $18k for the big-battery Zero S will buy a bike that's faster, cheaper, lighter, easier to ride, and (in some cases) has more range than the Harleys.
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Looks like no need for me to go to the press conference, since everything has already been told and shown. So I guess I have some time to visit other deserving stands. And give my tired feet a break...
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protomech,
I think it is going to be a long time before we see L2 charging on a Zero. There is just no place to put it other than bolting it either to the side case mounts or putting them inside the side cases. And yes that could be an option for Zero. Myself and several others here have it set up that way. But adding two Elcons to your bike also adds about 30 pounds or so and it definitely effects handling. Riding the Tail of the Dragon in western NC is definitely easier without the Elcons mounted on the bike.
Whether CHAdeMO is a good option depends on where you live. I am in NC and I have ordered a CHAdeMO for my SR but they are not yet available. There are enough CHAdeMO systems around NC that it is definitely worth getting and there is a company that is going to install another 18 systems beginning next month.
It would be really great to have a 6.6KW L2 charging system on a Zero that didn't add a lot of weight or take up much space but think we are a few years away from that.
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The one thing I was really hoping for was a reduction in the cost per kWh, especially on the FX. But with the 5.7 kWh version still costing $2500 more than the base model, Zero is still charging about $1000 per kWh. If you look at the costs per kWh for cars like the Leaf and the Tesla, this is several times more expensive.
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Thanks for your summary protomech.
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That new lineup is fscking SICK! I'd love to see backporting of some features to protect my investment. I'd also love to see a platform that is designed to accept incremental improvements in a modular fashion to allow for component replacement while preserving the core investment, which is the monolith. I'd love to see a time that I could buy a power tank that has the same or greater capacity as the monolith on my current motorcycle. I'd look forward to wearing this thing out in 5-10 years and when I'm ready to buy another one, the battery capacity has doubled or tripled and be able to carry components over. I'd love to be able to recycle my old monolith into a solar panel storage battery after the motorcycle wrapped around it has worn out.
I'm a bit of a dreamer ;)
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For Canadians, the price difference is $1300 for the S and DS, and $1605 for the SR. Around Christmas last year, the Canadian dollar was at around 0.95, now it's at 0.89, which reflect the price difference almost exactly. Unfortunately, I didn't get a 7% raise last year, so I might try to see if I can buy a 2014 instead. Or, I wonder if I can wait for the loony to bounce back and buy it in USD a bit later...
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Note, the accessories page has been updated, but there's no mention of CHAdeMO for the '15s at this point.
I hope they haven't abandoned the standard. Yes, I know that
I'm a fan of CHAdeMO because CHAdeMO appears to me to be internationally consistent, Combo is not.
Combo has "Type 1" and "Type 2", which is dependent upon what the locally-prevailing AC fast-charging standard connector is. I don't want to have a situation where I have to buy a new motorcycle because I move to another country where the AC standard is different or the bike is more difficult to sell because there's a smaller pool of potential buyers because the AC standard is different.
Having one connector doesn't matter as much to me as having a consistent connector that works everywhere.
What'd be really great is if the QC package could just have a location to fit it onto the motorcycle and have it be modular, and have it receive the charger connector on one end and output into the Anderson power connector on the other. If it could be stowed underneath the seat, it'd be ideal. That way, it'd be possible to keep the QC independent of the manufactured motorcycle but still reasonably easy to transport, and riders would be able to choose which standard for QC they want.
Yes, this is a total threadjack.
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I wonder why the 2015 FX is heavier than my 2013 FX? The battery didn't change capacity. Do the new shocks and ABS add that much? I'd much rather exchange weight for more capacity.
Trikester
BTW - Had a great time dirt riding in SE Utah on my Zero powered (2013 MX/FX Powertrain) e-trike. Running like a champ!
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What I want to know is if those cool new, light weight wheels can be used on a 2013 Zero.
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What I want to know is if those cool new, light weight wheels can be used on a 2013 Zero.
I suspect we previous owners wishing to upgrade our bikes via parts will not have access to them in any significant number given how hard it is to get parts for existing bikes as it is >_<
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I hope they haven't abandoned the standard.
I can't imagine they'd abandon Level 3 charging entirely. They need SOME sort of option for DC fast charging, maybe not so much today but in a couple of years it's going to be mandatory for widespread acceptance. CHAdeMO seems the logical choice, based on installed units and overall widespread acceptance so far.
Someone said in another thread that even today, CHAdeMO is "not yet available" for the 2014 S and SR. It seems hard to imagine they're having some sort of issue with the design -- they do have adapters available for some models. Are they just not willing to offer another CHAdeMO adapter until the incompatibility issues are resolved? I have to admit I haven't considered getting one since I don't know how many stations are truly compatible -- I'm not going to shell out $1800 for something unless I know it's going to do the job I need it to do.
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I suspect we previous owners wishing to upgrade our bikes via parts will not have access to them in any significant number given how hard it is to get parts for existing bikes as it is >_<
You know how the world of new technologies works, Burton. You buy something this year, it's better and cheaper next year.
Actually, I'm feeling very gratified right now by my decision to buy last year. There are incremental improvements in the SR this year, but nothing revolutionary, unlike the year before when the SR was introduced as a clear advancement over the S. Sure, ABS would be nice, name-brand components would be cool, but I'm perfectly happy that I bought last year and already have 7000 miles on my bike, probably 10,000 or more before the 2015 is actually available. Honestly, I got lucky, but I feel like my timing was perfect.
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OUCH the prices in Quebec! I'm glad I had my 2013 demo for 13000$ last year.
Great improvements, but nothing revolutionary. My 2013 still hold well even if it got cheaper tires and suspension.
ABS is great but that's another complicated thing that can get defective. I don't mind normal brakes, I've been running with that for 20 years.
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Regarding the 10% improvement in battery pack capacity, it is my understanding that Zero is using the same batteries as they did in their 2013 and 2014 models, but have found a more efficient way of packaging them, thereby getting 10% more cells in each battery module. However they were not able to accomplish this repackaging with the "power tank" modules for some reason.
Personally, I think Zero has done the right thing in letting their power train stay the same while concentrating of improving the ride, handling and quality of the chassis components. At their price point, you can't go cheap on these components and expect customers to accept that level of quality. Now I think they will be at least equal in handling to the Brammo Empulse.
And speaking of Brammo, what are they up to next year? ???
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And speaking of Brammo, what are they up to next year? ???
Brammo is trying to get funding so it can create a cruiser and scooter :/
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Regarding ChaDeMo, it seems like they are waiting for greater compatibility. They don't want the bad PR of "I spent an extra $1800 on an already expensive bike and what did I get?" The only bikes that are using/advertising Level 3 charging (ChaDeMo or CCS) run at higher voltages (Lightning, Energica, Mission, etc.).
I think a lot of parts will be backwards compatible. I certainly hope the shocks are! :-)
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Energica is using Combo.
The ones we looked at at Bear Mountain had Combo Type 1 (J1772), but they also had demo bikes with Combo Type 2 (Mennekes).
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Regarding the 10% improvement in battery pack capacity, it is my understanding that Zero is using the same batteries as they did in their 2013 and 2014 models, but have found a more efficient way of packaging them, thereby getting 10% more cells in each battery module
Repacking is something that a level 2 maintenance eng for Zero can do?
I wonder if an existing bike can be repacked and have its capacity increased for a modest fee?
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To those who want ABS, this may be interesting to read:
http://www.bosch-presse.de/presseforum/details.htm?txtID=6490&locale=en (http://www.bosch-presse.de/presseforum/details.htm?txtID=6490&locale=en)
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To those who want ABS, this may be interesting to read:
http://www.bosch-presse.de/presseforum/details.htm?txtID=6490&locale=en (http://www.bosch-presse.de/presseforum/details.htm?txtID=6490&locale=en)
Interesting. That is the system that the 2015 Zeros use. Note that it only works on the front wheel, but it is very light and compact.
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Doug S,
In an email that Zero sent my dealer it says that Zero feels good about CHAdeMO systems from Nissan, Fuji, and ABB. They tried two Eaton systems and they worked. A forum member here also used two different Eaton systems and both worked on a 2013 Zero. Blink systems won't work since they don't go below 200 volts. Aerovironments are a problem since they go down to 100 volts. So if you are around 25% SOC or more they may work but if you are down to under 10% SOC they are not likely to work since you may also be down to almost 95 volts. That issue is being worked. Most of the CHAdeMO systems in North Carolina are Nissan and Eaton systems. There are 18 Fuji being installed in NC starting next month. Four of the Nissan systems are within range of my SR and there are three Eaton systems within range. If you go into the Plugshare web site and look for DC Fast Chargers you can see what brands are within your range and then decide if it is worth it to you. DC fast chargers become a bigger deal once you start doing trips that require multiple charges. If I travel across NC right now there are two DC fast chargers that I could use. This could cut charge time by a few hours. And any trip to Raleigh would mean using a fast charger instead of L2. That could easily save an hour and a half of charge time on every trip. It is certainly tempting.
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Was there any mention of EFACEC chargers in that compatibility list?
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Thanks, ultrarnr, that's great information. We need to start a database, or see if Zero will share theirs.
Now my only problem is contacting all the CHAdeMO stations in southern CA and finding out what brand of charger they use. I don't think Plugshare has that information.
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Doug S,
Actually Plugshare does. In some cases you just have to look at the photos, in other cases it says in the description. I looked this morning and you have a lot of Blink and EVGO systems and a few Nissan systems in SOCAL. The Blink will defintely not work since the lowest voltage they support is 200 volts. The EVGO I am not sure. There is a 7-Eleven in San Diego in which the description says it is a Nissan branded CHAdeMO and below that it says it is part of the EVGO network. If Nissan makes the EVGO DCFCs then there is a good chance they will work but you need to dig deeper to be sure.
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Speaking of charging infrastructure: I stumbled across this charging station that was planted and hidden away behind my local Safeway store (where the sun don't shine) about 6 months ago. The last time I checked it is still not functioning - unlike my three local gas stations. :o
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The last time I checked it is still not functioning - unlike my three local gas stations. :o
Lol you should send that picture of your lonely EV, waiting in vain to recharge at their unfinished station, to NRG. It might just prod them into finishing the installation.
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If only they had a 120V outlet at the facility. ::) Instead I have to find a free wall outlet on the back of the Safeway store. ;)
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Getting back to the subject matter at hand. Some other minor upgrades and improvements to the 2015 Zeros are:
No Bold New Graphics, but deeper, richer colors on better more durable plastic.
An improved throttle assembly.
Improved wheel bearings.
It looks like Zero really worked hard to address their customer's chassis complaints. :)
Also, factory production is due to commence in November (earlier than usual), with the first deliveries arriving at dealer's showrooms some time in December.
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I wonder why the 2015 FX is heavier than my 2013 FX? The battery didn't change capacity. Do the new shocks and ABS add that much? I'd much rather exchange weight for more capacity.
Trikester
BTW - Had a great time dirt riding in SE Utah on my Zero powered (2013 MX/FX Powertrain) e-trike. Running like a champ!
275 lbs 2013 => 280 lbs 2014 => 289 lbs 2015
The 2014 weight gain is due to a heavier, sturdier frame (+2.5 pounds), larger brake rotors, larger forks, and a restyled pillion-ready seat.
The 2015 weight gain probably comes down to wider wheels and tires, ABS, and potentially other components that weigh more.
Regarding the 10% improvement in battery pack capacity, it is my understanding that Zero is using the same batteries as they did in their 2013 and 2014 models, but have found a more efficient way of packaging them, thereby getting 10% more cells in each battery module. However they were not able to accomplish this repackaging with the "power tank" modules for some reason.
Is the 10% more cells something that has been stated, or is that your assumption based upon their terminology?
They can't add 10% more cells in parallel. 28 => 31 cells in series might be a possibility, but the Sevcon G80 controllers are already running as high as they can go with 28 series. 31 would push them right over, unless they have a new custom design.
Without any hard information to go by, I think they are likely using a one or more cells that are in total 10% higher capacity than the 2013-2014 Farasish 25 Ah cells.
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In a conversation that I participated in with the Zero marketing staff, I was told (to the best of my recollection) that the cells were repackaged in some way so that they could get more cells in each on-board battery module. Apparently they were not able to do this with the "power tank"/removable FX module design. There was no mention that the cells were upgraded or that the battery manufacturer had changed. But I could have misunderstood the answer. ???
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I like to see the front fork axle mount in black instead of grey/aluminium colour. I like completely black front forks matching the black frame and swing arm.
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I like to see the front fork axle mount in black instead of grey/aluminium colour. I like completely black front forks matching the black frame and swing arm.
Black forks are nice, but gold looks better - especially at electric motorcycle prices. ;)
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On the 2015 DS pricing page of the Zero website there is a $599 Quick Charge option?
The old CHadeMo option was $1,800 for 2013, 2014 models.
Has anyone got the scoop on what the new Quick Charge Option is and why it is now more affordable to add on?
I am guessing it is still the CHAdeMo standard.
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They're additional AC chargers, not CHAdeMO. If you look on the specs page http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-ds/specs.php (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-ds/specs.php) and click on the question mark beside "With max accessory chargers", it says:
Zero's scalable charging accessory allow customers to add multiple standalone chargers (in addition to the existing on-board unit) for up to a ~75% reduction in charge time, depending on the model and year.
For 2015 motorcycles, the max number of accessory chargers is:
Zero SR, Zero S, Zero DS = 4
Zero FX 5.7 = 3
Zero FX 2.8 = 1
Please keep in mind that most household electricity circuits are rated to 110V/15A, which can only support a single charger. As a result, in order to make use of Zero's quick-charge accessories, you must plug each charger into a separate 110V/15A circuit. If connecting to any other, higher-rated household circuit, you must make sure it can safely support the load of each of Zero's 1,200W input chargers.
The Quick Charger's page is here: http://bit.ly/1s8vlOD (http://bit.ly/1s8vlOD)
The CHAdeMO charger still seems to be offered for 2013 and 2014 models but not 2015 http://bit.ly/1s8vqBZ (http://bit.ly/1s8vqBZ)
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Ah, that makes sense.
I think I saw somewhere in the 2015 pictures a CHAdeMo port so I am guessing that it is still a high dollar option.
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It looks like Zero is adding a rear rack and Givi top case availability to the FX accessories list! No pic yet on the website but I guess that this comes from the FXP model and fits all FX, back to 2013.
Crash bars are also available for the FX, but only 14, 15 model years.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7&zenid=o541v4n6tfssstqmes5di14hl2 (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7&zenid=o541v4n6tfssstqmes5di14hl2)
This will be a nice addition to the FX as it is the perfect errand runner bike but has no storage.
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Ah, that makes sense.
I think I saw somewhere in the 2015 pictures a CHAdeMo port so I am guessing that it is still a high dollar option.
Unfortunately, they decided not to offer ChaDeMo on the 2015 bikes, so you can only get that upgrade with 2013 bikes and (hopefully soon) 2014 bikes.