ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Martin on July 01, 2014, 11:39:55 AM
-
Where can I go to learn more about regen and how it works. I also would like to better understand how adjustments in custom mode work with regen.
Insist in greatly appreciated.
-
What type of information do you want ? Regen uses the kinetic inertia and the electric motor with the help of the power inverter to put back the energy in the battery. The custom mode allow you to set the Regen level you want when closing the throttle and when hitting the brake lever.
-
what effects does changing max regen coast and brake have on the bike. How do I know where to set each one for my particular ride?
-
It's a little of a catch 22. In town, in stop and go traffic is where regen is happening best, but who needs it there? When riding on the interstate or other major road going long distances where you might like a few extra miles, you would seldom activate the system from braking or letting off the throttle. I still really like the system, but I like it because it simulates engine braking. If you minimize regen in eco mode, since the bike rolls so easily, you might find yourself coming up too fast at stop lights or stopped cars in front of you. I certainly did. But max braking regen and max off-throttle set in eco mode is a fantastic way to ride for me. It is similar to the engine braking you get from many motorcycles by dropping down 2 or more gears...steady though and not jerky...like a slipper clutch would apply the slowing. For me, it makes the bike safer to ride. It's brilliant.
-
In my opinion the real benefit of regen is duplicating the engine braking you experience on an ICE bike. While technically regen is capable of recharging your battery and extending range unless you live in the mountains that doesn't happen to any extent. Recently I rode my SR across North Carolina and rode around in the mountains. When you have long downhills that go for several miles you will see regen having an effect on your battery. In some cases it means you can ride for 6-8 miles with no drop in charge level. On one very long and steep hill on Wayah Road the battery charge level actually increased by several percent. When I stopped to take a break on that hill a van passed and it was obvious their brakes were burning up. Nice to have regen recharging my battery instead of me burning up my brakes.
I have my regen set at 74% on throttle closing and 100% when braking. Your preferences may differ.
-
Heading down from the Pikes Peak summit, there is a halfway point brake check station where the rangers check your rotor temps to make sure you're not overheating.
The electrics were of course cool.. and we all picked up a few % riding down. Brandon (Electric Cowboy) riding trikester's FX-conversion trike I think gained from 19% to 40+% by the end..
-
Thanks everyone for the guidance.
First, what is an ICE bike?
Second, in someone with more knowledge opinion, what should I look at setting regen. I live about 4.3 miles from the freeway entrance. I then ride 24 miles, going between 40-80 mph depending on traffic. My office is then 2 miles from the freeway exit. I know I want to set max speed to 85mph.
Regen Throttle ?
Regen Brake?
Thanks,
-
Thanks everyone for the guidance.
First, what is an ICE bike?
Second, in someone with more knowledge opinion, what should I look at setting regen. I live about 4.3 miles from the freeway entrance. I then ride 24 miles, going between 40-80 mph depending on traffic. My office is then 2 miles from the freeway exit. I know I want to set max speed to 85mph.
Regen Throttle ?
Regen Brake?
Thanks,
"ICE" is shorthand for "internal combustion engine". "EV" is used to describe "electric vehicle".
Setting the regen percentage to something that works well for you is mostly trial and error, but any setting should work fine, maybe just not optimum for your type of riding. If you do a lot of stop-and-go surface street riding, then I would recommend something like 50% throttle regen and 100% braking regen. But if you ride at faster speeds and on mostly level roads, you might want to try 0%-25% regen with the throttle closed and 100% when braking. That is what I now have my "custom" setting at and I think I like it. In any case you can easily switch from "custom" to "sport" or "eco" modes should you want a different regen setting for the type of riding that you are doing at the moment.
-
For example I tried setting my regen throttle to 0% and brake regen to 100%, but I did'nt like the resulting jerk that touching the brakes generated, the UK has a LOT of roundabouts and it made controlling my speed round them uncomfortable. 50% regen on the throttle however was to aggressive when simply rolling off the throttle, so around 20% worked in the end for me.
So my current settings are
Regen Throttle - 20%
Regen Brake - 100%
Interestingly the Sevcon motor controllers in the Zero's can handle proportional regenerative braking, but to take advantage of that you'd have to add your own controls (and possibly reprogram the sevcon?) if you dig around on this forum you'll find at least one or two threads discussing the modification.
One of the nice things about regen braking is that when applying the front brake, it mimics the rear brake coming on before the front calipers fully engage, this makes braking much smoother.
-
With my braking regen set at 100% I find that I only need to touch the front brake lightly to activate easy braking. That gives me light braking in front and relatively light braking at the rear wheel, balancing front and rear braking without having to actually use the rear brake. Then if I need to brake harder, I can apply heavy hand front and rear foot braking as you would with a typical ICE motorcycle when coming to a stop and the regen just adds some rear wheel braking, resulting in needing lighter foot pressure on the rear brake lever.
-
ICE, no dah. That is obvious.
I will try your recommendations. Thank you all.
-
Heading down from the Pikes Peak summit, there is a halfway point brake check station where the rangers check your rotor temps to make sure you're not overheating.
The electrics were of course cool.. and we all picked up a few % riding down. Brandon (Electric Cowboy) riding trikester's FX-conversion trike I think gained from 19% to 40+% by the end..
The two times I rode my e-trike to the top I loved coming down to the mandatory brake temp check point.
The first time I told the lady as I rolled up that this was the first time I used my mechanical brakes and it was just to stop at the check point. She pointed her temp scope at one front disk and said: Wow, it's below 100F (most likely it was at ambient). The second time, two days later, there was a guy there checking temps. As I approached the station he yelled at me from about 50 feet away: "You're OK" and waved me through without checking. Since he was not the one checking the first day he must have been near and heard what the lady said. I got a big kick out of that! ;D
I did my down hill rides from the top for maximum regen gain, not high speed. That meant in the straights I kept tapping my brake light momentary switch (left handlebar) to engage maximum regen. This reduced my straightaway speed to the point where I could ensure being able to slow enough for the switchbacks using regen alone. The highest speed I observed was about 35 mph and on the steepest slopes I held it to less than that. On the second ride I did the entire decent from the top of Pikes Peak to the toll station (18+ miles) without using my mechanical brakes. Not even at the check point this time because he waved me through.
FYI - I have my non-regen state set at zero (for free coasting) on both SPORT and ECO because I only want "engine braking" regen when I ask for it by using the brake light switch to initiate. It is very easy to get used to this when riding in traffic also.
See photo of Zero powered trike at the top.
Trikester
-
As far as the effectiveness of regen, it depends on the rider as much as the riding conditions. I have a car that allows for some custom eco settings and it has guidelines for max fuel efficiency including regen. Excluding hills and other anomalies, the most efficient use of regen happens when you stop by using only the force from regen - no brakes. Any use of the brakes is lost energy. It also suggested that 0% regen is more efficient when you are trying to maintain an approximate speed. My car has a coast setting that uncouples the transmission - same as if you would put it in neutral. Lift off the gas and it coasts with no engine brake. Touch the brakes and you get both engine brake and regen.
The regen is triggered by either the front or back brake and depressing either enough to activate the brake light also activates regen. The back brake is essentially worthless so I am considering disabling it and using it only to activate 100% regen.
Edit: 2 problems, I like to use the rear brake to hold position when stopped on an incline and it appears the same mechanism applies the brake and light / regen. Good news is that there is a set screw on the front brake to adjust sensitivity to light / regen.
-
A newbie's $0.02 worth: I received my SR in late January 2014, and spent a fair amount of time those first weeks fiddling around with "custom" mode....I didn't like being limited to 71 mph on the freeway here in so cal -- it's fine for cruising, but not so much if you want to get around someone. Finally, after experimenting quite a bit, it dawned on me that if I just leave it in "sport" mode and show some discipline with my right wrist, I can get exactly the same benefits as "eco" mode without any of the restrictions.
So I've been riding it that way ever since. My daily commute uses no more energy than before, but when that 18-wheeler is in the way of hitting my off-ramp, 106 ft-lbs of torque is available instantly, whatever my speed may be.
And I like the full regen -- roll off the throttle to slow down and you put energy BACK into your battery, instead of wasting it heating up brake disks.
-
Have you noticed that you cannot change modes when going faster than 60mph? This really sucks when you forget to change to sport mode before getting on the highway. Finding yourself stuck in Eco mode 70 mph hell when everyone around you is going 80 sucks. The only way out is to slow to 60 or get off the highway. Not very safe IMO.
I prefer general riding in sport mode as well. You can depress the brake just a little and get 100% regen without actually braking. Once you get the feel of it, it's easy.
-
Krash, it's been a while since I used either "eco" or "custom" modes, but I don't remember having to slow down on the freeway to do it. Are you sure you're rolling all the way off the throttle? That's the other thing that annoyed me...I understand the rationale, but rolling off to 0% throttle on so cal freeways just seems unwise to me.
-
Doug S,
I have a SR as well and in Custom Mode I can go all the way to 95 MPH. I always use Custom instead of Sport just because I like more regen than what Sport offers.
I have tried Eco mode and don't like it at all. Takes away your ability to use speed to get away from a dangerous situation.
Of course I am now wondering if different bikes have different settings in Sport mode since I sure don't have 100% regen when braking in Sport mode.
-
A newbie's $0.02 worth: I received my SR in late January 2014, and spent a fair amount of time those first weeks fiddling around with "custom" mode....I didn't like being limited to 71 mph on the freeway here in so cal -- it's fine for cruising, but not so much if you want to get around someone. Finally, after experimenting quite a bit, it dawned on me that if I just leave it in "sport" mode and show some discipline with my right wrist, I can get exactly the same benefits as "eco" mode without any of the restrictions.
So I've been riding it that way ever since. My daily commute uses no more energy than before, but when that 18-wheeler is in the way of hitting my off-ramp, 106 ft-lbs of torque is available instantly, whatever my speed may be.
And I like the full regen -- roll off the throttle to slow down and you put energy BACK into your battery, instead of wasting it heating up brake disks.
I am coming to that same conclusion myself. Custom mode seems to be only beneficial when you want the throttle to peg at a certain speed and I like that. I have mine set to top speed of 85mps with 50% torque, leaving regen brake at 100% while playing with coast regen to see if my milage changes. So far no luck.
-
When I picked up my bike, I rode home in eco but I got on a stretch of 70mph highway. I couldn't get into Sport. 1500 miles later, I had the same problem in the same location. Both times I was going 70 in eco. When I decelerated to exit, it switched to sport at 60 mph. I repeated this several times.
Maybe sport brake regen isn't 100% but it is more than sport coasting regen.
I'm always in sport unless worried about range on a long planned ride. Then, I use eco in town, and custom on highway:
25% torque
73mph max (ticket prevention)
0% coast regen
100% brake regen
Custom speed can go higher but I use it as a cruise control on the open road (not in heavy traffic).
-
Ultramr,
That's a good point about regen -- I wouldn't mind having a bit more all the time. I suppose I could set it up in custom mode for full speed, full torque but increase the regen, and run in that mode all the time.
I also frankly just don't get much out of the phone app. It's fun and cool and all but I don't use it. I can't find much of use that isn't duplicated on the dashboard. But of course, to change custom mode I'd just have to do it once. I'll have to consider that.
-
The best part about the modes is the ability to set it up per your riding style or route. My dealer is wanting to plan an electric rally about 45 miles from my house. I used google maps to look at different routes to find a better way to make the trip than all highway and still have some fun. It's a mix of city, county roads, small towns and highway. I set out last weekend to test the ride. Any road that had frequent stops, I was in eco. County roads and highway were custom per my settings posted previously. After making it to the destination with a surprising 64% battery left, I spent the return trip mostly in sport and arrived home with 12%.
Learn your Zero, route and riding style. Use the modes and have fun. You can plan some pretty cool 100 mile rides with 11.4 kWh.
-
Ultramr,
That's a good point about regen -- I wouldn't mind having a bit more all the time. I suppose I could set it up in custom mode for full speed, full torque but increase the regen, and run in that mode all the time.
I also frankly just don't get much out of the phone app. It's fun and cool and all but I don't use it. I can't find much of use that isn't duplicated on the dashboard. But of course, to change custom mode I'd just have to do it once. I'll have to consider that.
What I like about the "custom" mode is that I can set the regen for a broad range of effect. I have my custom closed-throttle regen set at 0% and my braking regen set for 100%, while power is set for 94 mph (I use my throttle hand to adjust my speed and power consumption). Combined with the other two modes, this gives me a full range of regen slowing effect, from 0% to 100% by using a combination of the three modes, which can be shifted on the fly depending upon my riding environment, and light braking which I use to activate the braking regen. I use custom mode (0%) to coast along (so that I do not have to use the throttle to keep moving) when riding along relatively level ground, eco mode when riding in stop-and-go urban traffic and down a steep hill and sport mode for general riding. I find sport mode to be the most useful during much of my traveling, but switching to the other modes can be helpful at times, too.
In any case, don't expect regen to do much to lengthen your ride. The amount of time you spend while slowing down under regen is very small compared with the amount of time that you are under power during all riding conditions that do not involve going down a long, steep, hill. Plus, when in regen, the amount of power returned to the battery as you go down a hill is much less than the amount of power used by the motor when you went up the hill.
-
"In any case, don't expect regen to do much to lengthen your ride."
Amen, brother. In my very informal testing on my Zero SR, by FAR the greatest determinant of range is top/cruising speed, almost to the point where nothing else matters. If you accelerate repeatedly at full throttle, but limit your cruising speed to 70 mph, you'll get more range than if you accelerate much more slowly but cruise at 75. Similarly, regen helps a tiny bit (and every little bit is good on an EV!) but realistically it isn't going to help you cruise home much faster if at all.
It's also VERY clear that improving the aerodynamics is a tremendous help. I found an honest 20% improvement (if not closer to 25%) in range when I added my Slipstreamer windscreen. Yes, it's ugly and retro-looking, and there's a large gap around the headlight housing, but it's bigger than either of the factory-offered windscreens and I have to think it offers more improvement to the aerodynamics. I drool a bit looking at Terry Herschner's Vetter "dustbin" fairing but it's a bit much even for me. I've done a lot of fiberglass work in the past though, so maybe.....nah. Too busy riding my bike. :-)
-
I do more dirt riding than pavement. Since the average dirt ride is "out & back" it means that every uphill going out becomes a downhill coming back and visa verse. Because of that nature of out and back rides and the much slower speeds on rough terrain, I find that my regen greatly adds to my range. I can get as much as 8o miles on my 2013 5.7 FX on certain dirt rides. If there is much sand however it goes way down and with regen also not working well when sand is slowing the downhill sections.
As I have posted before, I have my modes set up for zero regen (free coasting) unless I activate the brake light. With brake light I have 15% (100% in Sport) and 25% (100% in ECO) regen. I also have ECO programmed for full torque and max speed so that I can ride city in ECO without any drawbacks to safety in traffic.
Trikester