ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Tech => Parts, Mods And Hacks => Topic started by: WindRider on March 15, 2014, 04:13:57 AM
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Has anyone here built a JuiceBox charger for a Zero or Brammo Electric Motorcycle?
This looks like an ideal solution for a portable or garage mount FastCharger:
http://www.emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/44-customizable-juicebox-an-open-source-level-2-15kw-ev-charging-station (http://www.emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/44-customizable-juicebox-an-open-source-level-2-15kw-ev-charging-station)
Doc, please chime in.......
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I haven't built that one, but I'm in the process of building an openEVSE:
https://code.google.com/p/open-evse/
I just need to source a relay or two for the AC switching and wire it up.
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I am looking at building one. They have a a CHAdeMO 20kW version coming out soon you might want to wait for :)
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FWIW the Juicebox is an EVSE (or charging station), not a charger.
They do have a 12 kW vehicle charger; it's not ideally suited to the Zeros, as it maxes at 70 A standard, 100 A optional (so up to 7 kW for the 2012 bikes, 11 kW for the 2013 bikes) and it's not really a sealed charger. Still, pretty interesting.
http://www.emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/10-smartcharge-12000-a-12kw-universal-voltage-ev-charger-fully-assembled-tested (http://www.emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/10-smartcharge-12000-a-12kw-universal-voltage-ev-charger-fully-assembled-tested)
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Could you not make the EMW12KW sealed by going with their water cooled option? Though I wonder how you would cool the inductors and if they could be exposed to air.
Protomech could you better explain why the EMW12KW, if made weather proof, wouldn't be awesome for our Zeros? I believe Terry is looking at putting the 12KW, or 25KW in a givi case as his 'weather proofing' then only charge when it isn't raining outside.
I am new to the limits of Zero's so any help would be appreciated. If I recall the voltage of the 2013 is not above 118 so if we round it off to 110 then the 100Amp option would be required on the EMW12KW ... not sure if that cost more or not.
I planned on building the Juicebox for the house and maybe the EMW12KW for my touring charger. The trick is going to figure out where to put it >_< lol That is unless you have another suggestion for chargers I can use on the road the charge the bike in an hour.
I know enough about electrical equipment manufacturing to build these but I couldn't tell you how they work lol
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I measured out dimensions for the EMW 12 kW charger on my 2012 S.
If you go water-cooled, then there's enough room to mount the sealed box of electronics and cooling plate underneath the bike, where the stock charger exists. You'll need to mount a radiator somewhere else - perhaps on the front? - and also find a place for the inductor module, which will get very very hot.
The reason it's not really suited for the 2012 Zeros is because the 2012 Zeros are relatively low voltage, and can't make full use of the charger. The standard 70A (DC) EMW charger is indeed much faster than the stock 12A (DC) Delta-Q, but Doc Bass's stack of 3 meanwells is (I recall) roughly the same size and cost as the air-cooled EMW, almost certainly more reliable (UL-listed power supplies vs a self-assembled kit), and just as fast as even the 100A upgrade EMW.
It's a slightly different story for the 2013 bikes, as their higher voltage allows the charger to provide almost 60% more power.
It's a cool idea, and I love that EMW is open-sourcing the design. I just think it makes more sense in a car (higher voltage + weatherproofed interior), or perhaps in a DIY bike build where you can package the charger better.
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I haven't built that one, but I'm in the process of building an openEVSE:
https://code.google.com/p/open-evse/
I just need to source a relay or two for the AC switching and wire it up.
Very cool Frodus. Please report how the final product works with your bike!
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FWIW the Juicebox is an EVSE (or charging station), not a charger.
Protomech,
Thanks for chiming in. Forgive my ignorance on the difference between an EVSE or a charger. Here in my home state of Idaho EVs and quick charging stations are rare so my practical experience is none.
I have a 13 ZeroFX 5.7 and I LOVE the riding experience of that bike but range is limited and I am looking for ways to quick charge it now. I was looking at the JuiceBox as a way to carry a charger when needed or finding host businesses around my city that would be willing to install them if I would patronize their restaurant for lunch, coffee, or other things that might help them sell some product while I charge. For $149 I could just give them the charger and even help with the electrical installation. I have soldering and assembly skills and I could put the basic JuiceBox kit together and not blow it up or kill myself. I also thought about approaching the local Zero Dealer about putting in a few quick chargers as they are centrally located in the city and would make a great quick charge point.
From the JuiceBox site: "Finally, the JuiceBox is designed to be inherently portable. The Base version's dimensions allow you to take it everywhere and enjoy up to 15kW of charging power! There is an automatic power derating for 120V outlets so you don't have to worry about overloading your house wiring in that unfortunate event when you have to resort to 120V charging." So it seems that they intend it to be portable if desired?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge on this forum: I have learned a lot from your posts.
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I believe my bike has a size 6 controller in that location right now lol, the charger is under the 'tank.'
Correct me if I get this wrong, I am assuming I will.
DocBass had RSP2000-48's x 2 and one RSP2000-24 for 75V @ 7500W
For 110v you would need two RSP2000-48 in series and that would give you ~45.45 Amps (assuming what doc said is accurate that these are really 2500 continuous) http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3085.msg15383#msg15383 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3085.msg15383#msg15383)
To get to 10,000 Watts I assume you would need 4 of these? Two groups in parallel of two in series (-==-). That would give ~9999W ... but how many lvl2 J1772 charging stations would that take to run them. The JuiceBox 15kW lvl2 is 60A and the RSP2000-24 take 10A/230V to run so I assume you would have to have one since the total Amps is 40.
I can't seem to find the input voltage / amps required for the JuiceBox either ... I assume it would have to be a 240V @ 50A to get the 40A (125% higher than draw). Can you even get an outlet rated that high in a residential address? I know a dryer has a 30A circuit.
Spec sheet
http://www.meanwell.com/search/rsp-2000/default.htm (http://www.meanwell.com/search/rsp-2000/default.htm)
Cost of the RSP2000-48's are $430 each so $1720 for 4 meanwell RSP2000-48's tempting.
Going back to the EMW 12kW charger. You mentioned the need to remote the inductor module, how far can you move that from the main electronics? I imagine the future you move it the more resistance there would be.
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WindRider,
I'll swap you a little bit of EV knowledge for your motorcycle knowledge : )
The EV charger converts AC to the appropriate DC level to charge the battery. The EMW "smart charge 12000" is a charger. Chargers can be carried on the vehicle, typically integrated (onboard, like Zero's 1 kW 2012 charger) or fixed installation (typically quick DC, CHAdeMO or J1772 DC). The charger talks to the vehicle BMS and other sensors to safely charge the battery.
The EV "supply equipment" (EVSE) is basically a smart extension cord; essentially it connects wall AC to the AC input on the vehicle's onboard charger. J1772 has (thankfully) become the predominant EVSE technology in the US. There are other standards that use the same protocol with a different connector format, aka the European Type 2 / Mennekes connector.
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In order to charge your bike quickly, you need two things:
1. A high-power AC supply. A typical NEMA 5-15 can supply up to 1.8 kW (120V, 15A). A typical NEMA 6-30 can supply up to 7.2 kW (240V, 30A). J1772 can often supply 240V 30A, but in some cases can supply 40A or 80A.
2. A high-power charger. This can be a fixed offboard charger (CHAdeMO), which will have its own AC supply, or an onboard charger that will need to be attached to a high power AC supply.
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Probably your best bet for charging quickly with little or no EV-specific support infrastructure is a high-power charger that you carry with you when you need it that can be attached to typical 240V sockets.
Options:
1. Production chargers - Delta-Q from Zero (1.65 kW total when paired with onboard charger, +10 pounds) will charge your bike in 3 hours, Elcon TCCH-84-50 (http://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/7344653/7638130.htm) 5 kW, 40 pounds will charge your bike in 1 hour.
2. Semi-production chargers - DocBass and BSDThw have built chargers from a set of Meanwell power supplies. These aren't weather-proofed, but they're more power dense than the typical production chargers. 2x RSP-2000-48 + 1x RSP-2000-24 would weigh about 15 pounds and charge your bike in slightly over an hour.
3. Hand-built - EMW smartcharge 12 kW, 25 pounds! Wish they had a 6 kW 12 pound version.
Any of these can be attached to typical AC power sockets if you have access to them, or to a J1772 inlet mounted on the bike.
Asking businesses about installing fixed J1772 EVSE is great idea. I wouldn't lead in by offering to pay for the EVSE, but offering to help with installation and advice would be fantastic. The minimum price for a full JuiceBox EVSE is $278: $149 base + $129 12' 32A cable and J1772 "gun".
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I believe my bike has a size 6 controller in that location right now lol, the charger is under the 'tank.'
Correct me if I get this wrong, I am assuming I will.
Burton, did you buy Ted Rich's 2013 S race bike? I think the production 2013 S bikes had the charger modules installed underneath the battery box, but yours may be in a different location.
DocBass had RSP2000-48's x 2 and one RSP2000-24 for 75V @ 7500W
For 110v you would need two RSP2000-48 in series and that would give you ~45.45 Amps (assuming what doc said is accurate that these are really 2500 continuous) http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3085.msg15383#msg15383 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3085.msg15383#msg15383)
To get to 10,000 Watts I assume you would need 4 of these? Two groups in parallel of two in series (-==-). That would give ~9999W ... but how many lvl2 J1772 charging stations would that take to run them. The JuiceBox 15kW lvl2 is 60A and the RSP2000-24 take 10A/230V to run so I assume you would have to have one since the total Amps is 40.
You'd need > 40A on 240V to deliver 10 kW to the battery. This could be two 30A J1772 EVSE or 1 50A J1772 EVSE. 40A J1772 would be close (9.6 kW, probably 8.5 to 9 kW to the battery).
Chargers typically provide constant current (up to 100A for a 1C charge rate on the ZF11.4 battery) up to a point - perhaps 113 to 115V DC - then they switch to constant voltage to finish off the charge. At a very low state of charge - say 3.2 volts per cell - 100A charge would only require 8.9 kW DC. At the top of the charge you'd draw up to 11 kW DC. So charging power is not constant.
4x RSP-2000-48 (2s2p) and 1x RSP-2000-24 (in series with the -48s) would provide 80A of charging power, so about a 1.25 hour charge (~25 pounds). Alternatively, 9 RSP-2000-12 @ 13 volts each would provide a 100A charge (~45 pounds).
You'll have to decide if the extra 15 minutes is worth the extra expense, weight, and volume to carry with you.
Going back to the EMW 12kW charger. You mentioned the need to remote the inductor module, how far can you move that from the main electronics? I imagine the future you move it the more resistance there would be.
Here's the response I got back from the EMW folks:
Thank you for your kind words and the interest in our EV conversion products!
If specified at the time of order, we can modify the charger for 100A at no additional cost. Mostly requires a different custom inductor. We are not producing 150A yet but some of our customers are. That said, based on your info, I think 100A would be sufficient for your purposes, correct?
I would recommend to go with the PFC version - without it, you would be able to draw only ~5kW from a 7kW J1772 due to bad power factor.
You can get close to 4" height. The absolute minimum you can get is ~4.5": IGBTs are 1.2" high, PCB/mounting hardware is 0.1", caps are 2", liquid cold plate is ~0.6" - total of 3.9" plus clearance from caps to enclosure (0.1") and enclosure thickness (0.1" for 2 sides) - for grand total of 4.1" minimum.
In this config, you would need to mount the inductors separately. The length of wiring is not super-critical in that case - the only real consideration is the amount of EMI you can tolerate while charging. If you twist the wires, you should be fine. Whatever second enclosure you will be using for the inductors (each is ~5" diameter, ~2" tall), it will have to be ventilated. Inductors will dissipate 200-300W at 7kW, 100A output. They can run at 100C continuous so cooling is substantially less critical than for semicon components.
Once the inductors are outside of the enclosure, you can seal the main enclosure (assuming liquid cooling). You will still need a small fan inside the enclosure to get the heat out of the PCB and IGBT drivers. The amount of heat is not that significant so can be dissipated passively by the enclosure outer surface.
If you are interested, we could work with you on getting this combo going. One option might be for you to pick the specific enclosures on DigiKey, etc. and send the links to us. We will check if they could work and then build a custom unit for you. Pricing would be similar to what we have on our site for a full PFC unit plus a small customization fee.
Let me know what you think.
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Burton, did you buy Ted Rich's 2013 S race bike? I think the production 2013 S bikes had the charger modules installed underneath the battery box, but yours may be in a different location.
Nope, I bought Turbo ... EC's bike, I think EC worked on TR's bike though.
Chargers typically provide constant current (up to 100A for a 1C charge rate on the ZF11.4 battery) up to a point - perhaps 113 to 115V DC - then they switch to constant voltage to finish off the charge. At a very low state of charge - say 3.2 volts per cell - 100A charge would only require 8.9 kW DC. At the top of the charge you'd draw up to 11 kW DC. So charging power is not constant.
Will the EMW12KW automatically tapper off of is this something we have to do manually? I remember reading that Doc Bass let the last couple of % be handled by the onboard BMS / Charger to balance the cells. The assembly part 8 video shows it ramping down by itself but figured you might know :)
4x RSP-2000-48 (2s2p) and 1x RSP-2000-24 (in series with the -48s) would provide 80A of charging power, so about a 1.25 hour charge (~25 pounds). Alternatively, 9 RSP-2000-12 @ 13 volts each would provide a 100A charge (~45 pounds).
Could you explain why it is only 80A?
Is this right:
( (trimmed up) 50V@40A (in series) 50V@40A = 100V @40A )
(in parallel)
( (trimmed up) 50V@40A (in series) 50V@40A = 100V @40A )
=
100V @ 80 + (trimmed down ##? V @ 80A) = Not sure what the 24V would be trimmed to.
I thought these could be adjusted to 55V so two in series would be 110V?
I also thought they were 2500W continuous which would be 45.45A @ 55V not 36.36A @ 55V
Would RSP-2400-48's be better since they cost nearly the same? http://www.meanwell.com/search/RSP-2400/RSP-2400-spec.pdf (http://www.meanwell.com/search/RSP-2400/RSP-2400-spec.pdf)
I would recommend to go with the PFC version - without it, you would be able to draw only ~5kW from a 7kW J1772 due to bad power factor.
Just looked that the J1772 stations around me and most L2 are 6.6W >_<
What input voltage / amps would be required for the EMW12KW to spit out the desired 100A @ 110V ? Something tells me I wont be able to do it without two J1772's -_- Most places around me have one.
In all the demo videos I see them input 81A at either 151V or 335V
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The EMW charger is fully programmable, you can set the CC/CV point or install custom charging profiles, etc. It's pretty awesome.
Keep in mind that what I know is based upon research but not practice. I would defer to DoctorBass or BSDThw, as they're actually building these high power charging systems.
The ZF11.4 battery is 3.7 volts per cell, 24.5 Ah cells. The cell voltage will vary from 4.2 volts (completely charged) down to around 3.2 volts (very nearly completely discharged), 28 cells in series means your operational voltage for the charger should vary between 89.6 volts to 117.6 volts.
My understanding is that the power supplies are set to somewhere near the maximum battery voltage. When they're connected to the battery (which acts as a giant load) and then switched on, they will try to pull the battery up to the maximum voltage, limited by the maximum current of the power supply.
The RSP-2000-48 have 42A maximum current, two in parallel can provide up to 84A and can be trimmed between 43 to 56 V x2 = 86 to 112 volts. Unfortunately, that's not just barely not high enough to completely fill the Zero battery, which is why you add an RSP-2000-24 on top of the 2s2p RSP-2000-48 stack. Actually, I think an RSP-2000-12 would work just as well.. and that has an 100A maximum output. So yeah, the max current should be 84A.
5x RSP-2400-24, or 4x RSP-2400-24 and 1x RSP-2000-12 would be able to provide 100A current. RSP-2400 is about twice as large and about 70% heavier than RSP-2000 (100A = 15.2 kg = 33 lbs, 84A = 9.8 kg = 21 lbs), which seems like it might be a poor trade for the extra charging power.
Yeah, you'd need 2x 30A J1772 inlets to power the EMW charger @ 10 kW.
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WindRider,
I'll swap you a little bit of EV knowledge for your motorcycle knowledge : )
Thanks for that and your detailed post. I think I understand better now what the JuiceBox is and what charger options there for carrying on the bike. And yes, I was a motorcyclist for many years before I got hooked on these crazy EV bikes.
Given that the Zero QuikQ optional charger is fairly compact and only 10 lbs it is probably the best thing to carry on my FX as that plus the onboard charger will pull pretty near all of the power that a standard 120VAC plug can deliver and a 120V plug is still the most abundantly available option in my area.
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Protomech, thanks I get it now. So 28 cells in series and 4 sets of those in parallel make up the battery pack for a total of 112 cells ... maybe lol
It seems like it would make more sense to do 2 RSP-2000-48 in series with a RSP-2000-12/24 then have another identical set both with J1772 connections since you can't get more than 30A out of local J1772's
Then you could place them up over your front wheel with some machining to hide them, well in my case hide them given I am streamlining the bike like Terry's. But they weigh so little putting them in the tail section wouldn't hurt too much. Then I can leave the front for heavier things.
It seems all the RSP-2000-XX cost about the same so it would be about $1,290 per 'charger' (just in meanwells) with each producing up to 120V @ 42A, I think. So for two of these it would be $2,580 and of course each would require their own J1772 ... that whole single J1772 being more common than 2 thing is really putting a hamper on my world domination plans :/
The EMW12KW would output probably the same Watts as the meanwell setup with one J1772 but if two were there you could do the 10kW ... hmmm ...
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What I'd really like for a 2014 Zero S is a slightly smaller charger that can utilize J1772 at 7kW for the public EVSE's that are available with 220V at 30A. If I could carry 2 on a rack, then I could use multiple J1772 plugs when they are available for a total of 13.2kW of charging goodness!
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What I'd really like for a 2014 Zero S is a slightly smaller charger that can utilize J1772 at 7kW for the public EVSE's that are available with 220V at 30A. If I could carry 2 on a rack, then I could use multiple J1772 plugs when they are available for a total of 13.2kW of charging goodness!
Haha Ben! You're talking my language! I like it! Yes of all the options right now I think the EMW charger is the best bang for the buck, space and weight. I went by his shop a month ago and tested a 2014 DS with his portable CHAdeMO unit. Just amazing! His charger is so powerful and tiny. I'm thinking you power it with dual J1772's to max it out, or a single J1772 most times for 7 kw charging. I think it will fit and be waterproof in a GIVI top box. Then open it (when its not raining) to charge.
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I wish that EMW made a 6KW charger on the same design specs... if they could cut their SmartCharge 12KW in half and get it down to 12 lbs and 6X6X6" it would be the perfect onboard motorcycle charger and could replace the OEM charger. Add another outside the bike for road trips.
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It looks like EMW is also working on CHAdeMO charge station for this Spring. It sounds like it could work with lower voltages for Zero Motorcycles.
Some of these mounted around your riding area + Factory Zero CHAdeMO option would be the best for cost + not having to add a lot of weight and volume to the motorcycle although Zero charges a lot for the CHAdeMO option at $1,800. I am not sure what is involved in the Zero kit but that seems like a lot for a connector. As I understand it CHAdeMO has the advantage of DC charging, so it should not require an AC/DC charger on the bike, only some electronics to communicate appropriately between bike and charge station and the connector to connect the DC charge directly to the battery bank. This seems appealing in terms of making the bike simple and light but if they aren't anywhere to plug into it is of little use.
It seems like CHAdeMO is not catching on and there are more J1772 stations deployed and more future for that protocol? I would guess that it is lower cost and lower cost usually wins in the end.
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What I'd really like for a 2014 Zero S is a slightly smaller charger that can utilize J1772 at 7kW for the public EVSE's that are available with 220V at 30A. If I could carry 2 on a rack, then I could use multiple J1772 plugs when they are available for a total of 13.2kW of charging goodness!
Haha Ben! You're talking my language! I like it! Yes of all the options right now I think the EMW charger is the best bang for the buck, space and weight. I went by his shop a month ago and tested a 2014 DS with his portable CHAdeMO unit. Just amazing! His charger is so powerful and tiny. I'm thinking you power it with dual J1772's to max it out, or a single J1772 most times for 7 kw charging. I think it will fit and be waterproof in a GIVI top box. Then open it (when its not raining) to charge.
Hi Terry. Please elaborate a bit on testing a 2014DS with a portable CHAdeMO unit. You are taking the CHAdeMO unit and connoting it to 240V sources or the CHAdeMO unit is stationary and you are connecting a 2014 DS to it with the factory Zero CHAdeMO option? Was it this unit: http://emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/97-new-chademo-tm-compatible-charge-controller-for-emotorwerks-dc-chargers (http://emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/97-new-chademo-tm-compatible-charge-controller-for-emotorwerks-dc-chargers)
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Most CHAdeMO chargers are very expensive to purchase, and even more expensive to install the 480V AC supply. Nissan's QC is "cheap" @ $15k is "cheap", and I hear all-in cost to install is $50k. J1772 requires only 240V AC supply, and the EV supply equipment is relatively inexpensive ($500-$1000).
CHAdeMO installations ARE increasing, but they're certainly less common than J1772 AC installations. It doesn't help that the Nissan LEAF is the only common EV sold in the US that is compatible with the CHAdeMO standard.
Jan 2011: 539 worldwide CHAdeMO installations
Jan 2012: 1009 worldwide
Jan 2013: 2364 worldwide (154 US)
Jan 2014: 3500 worldwide (554 US)
http://www.chademo.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/changeinchargingstation20140110.pdf (http://www.chademo.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/changeinchargingstation20140110.pdf)
http://insideevs.com/chademo-dc-fast-charger-rollout-248-added-in-us-in-last-5-months-3523-chargers-worldwide/ (http://insideevs.com/chademo-dc-fast-charger-rollout-248-added-in-us-in-last-5-months-3523-chargers-worldwide/)
A 240V 100A circuit could be split several ways to charge EVs.
* 20 kW, single 125A DC CHAdeMO charger (20 kW LEAF, Mission R, Model S; 12 kW Zero)
* 20 kW, single 80A J1772 EVSE (20 kW Model S twin-charger; 10 kW Model S, RAV4, Mission R; 7 kW most other EVs)
* 2x 10 kW, two 40A J1772 EVSE (10 kW Model S, RAV4, Mission R; 7 kW most other EVs)
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Hi Terry. Please elaborate a bit on testing a 2014DS with a portable CHAdeMO unit. You are taking the CHAdeMO unit and connoting it to 240V sources or the CHAdeMO unit is stationary and you are connecting a 2014 DS to it with the factory Zero CHAdeMO option? Was it this unit: http://emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/97-new-chademo-tm-compatible-charge-controller-for-emotorwerks-dc-chargers (http://emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/97-new-chademo-tm-compatible-charge-controller-for-emotorwerks-dc-chargers)
EMW has a portable CHAdeMO unit. You could probably carry it with you in a GIVI case. You plug it in to a voltage source. Single or multiple J1772 or NEMA 14-50 would be my suggestion. Then you just plug it into the port on the bike. If you go on a ride and 3 other riders also have a CHAdeMO port, you could charge up everyone for 20 min or so if you say ride to Yosemite and back.
The other cool thing is you can assist other EV drivers that might have run empty. Valery from EMW is working on a direct connection to the battery that will power the unit. You and your Zero can then become a mobile CHAdeMO station! It may take a second to realize how significant this is.... :)
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That is perfect Terry. If I understand you correctly they are working on this device:
http://emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/97-new-chademo-tm-compatible-charge-controller-for-emotorwerks-dc-chargers (http://emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/97-new-chademo-tm-compatible-charge-controller-for-emotorwerks-dc-chargers)
Which is only :
Weight: 4 lb
Width: 8 in
Length: 12 in
Height: 3 in
And with that device and the Zero CHAdeMO option installed along with various input electrical connectors you could potentially quick charge at any voltage source that had enough power ?
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This is just the controller hooking up to the charger and then to your CHAdeMO port. That port cost $1400 through zero btw.
The charger works with their 12k 20 k and 25k chargers. I know the 12k would require 2 J1772 30 A to use at 12k for our purposes., no clue what would be required for the 25k charger.
That stated I would still like the chargerand if someone can give me a good reason the CHAdeMO controller.
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Windrider, this is the device we're looking at, an onboard charger that can plug into your bike using ChaDeMo and is powered by a J1772 plug:
http://www.emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/10-smartcharge-12000-a-12kw-universal-voltage-ev-charger-fully-assembled-tested/related_product-75 (http://www.emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/10-smartcharge-12000-a-12kw-universal-voltage-ev-charger-fully-assembled-tested/related_product-75)
I believe Electric Cowboy may be working on a version of this that is 6 or 7kW that would take the place of the tank area on a 2014 Zero. That way you could put on a charging unit instead of an extra battery to go on longer distance trips.
I'm curious how much extra electronics would be necessary to change the 12kW charger already available by eMotorWerks to have 2 inputs so you could charge with all 12kW using 2 J1772 plugs. That is my dream! (I think Terry might like one as well... ;-) )
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I don't think it would be too hard. You might have to make an EVSE with the two J1772 inputs then an output to your EMW12K
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/8661-Adapter-to-combine-two-30A-level2-into-one-60A-J1772-faster-charging/page4 (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/8661-Adapter-to-combine-two-30A-level2-into-one-60A-J1772-faster-charging/page4)
I sent an email off to EMW asking them what would be required and will post the info when they get back with me.
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The phase of the two different circuits are the most difficult part to figure out.
The guy you linked to had that issue:
"Three phase is definately a problem. I tried two different stations tonight and they both appeared to be different 3 phase legs. With most charging stations being on 3 phase power there may be very few places I can use this. I will keep testing but as of today things are not looking hopeful."
If someone could figure this out, I'm sure more people than motorcyclists would be interested.
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To solve this an easy way is to package your charging solutions in 7kw or less packages that are isolated. Then use AC from different J1772 sources. I charged with up to 4 J1772's last year doing this.
I hope Valery at EMW has a solution for the portable CHAdeMO
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Wont the CHAdeMO only be a controller which hooks up to their EMW25kW unit which would take 3 or 4 J1772 power sources? >_<
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If Valery (or anyone) can come up with a portable 7kW charger that doesn't need to be liquid cooled, then there are probably a lot of people wanting it! Although combining two J1772 plugs into 1 ChaDeMo connection also would be pretty sweet.
Imagine that. Turning any 2 J1772 Outlets into a double-fast charging station. Over here on the East Coast where there isn't a crowding problem at charging stations, that would work out quite nicely!
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From watching EMW on youtube it doesn't seem they are catering to the 6k/7k crowd as it seems their main focus is cars.
That stated IDK if you could get 6kW out of a 240v 30A circuit since it needs to step down to 120v and there is bound to be loss.
Sadly the only thing that comes close is two EMW12kW when you consider cost >_<
Something like this but 6.6kw would be interesting as it is still air cooled but enclosed. http://www.currentways.com/ev-battery-chargers/air-cooled-chargers/3kw-bc-series-air-cooled-ev-battery-charger-96vdc-nominal/ (http://www.currentways.com/ev-battery-chargers/air-cooled-chargers/3kw-bc-series-air-cooled-ev-battery-charger-96vdc-nominal/)
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Got some emails back from Valery, it seems they are working on a 7-8kW charger but I didn't ask when to expect it.
He said you can put two J1772 in parallel if they have the same phase to power the SuperCharger-12000
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A portable 7kW charger would be great and would allow us to utilize the full capacity of Level 2 chargers.
From what I read on another forum, it sounds like Level 2 chargers are often not in phase. Wonder how hard it would be to make a portable rectifier that could adjust for that or leave the phase alone if it is already the same.
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It has been a while and figured I would revisit this topic since I am having a slow week on my zero build.
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2906/14255141855_78b92ef529_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nHFk2R)
The idea is pretty simple. Second J1772 from top should be labeled #2 not #1
Both 48 groups are in series with each other.
When the switch labeled Neg is set to A and the switch labeled Pos is set to A you have 2 RSP-2000-48v in series with one 12v. 5-6khw
When the switches are both changed to B then you have both RSP-2000-48 which are in series with their nearest neighbor on the diagram in parrallel with each other then in series with the 12v charger. 10-12kwh ?
This all assumes you are trimming the voltage up on the chargers. The range for the 48's is 42-56 and for the 12 is 10.5 ~ 14V
I forget what doc said about being able to trim both the current and the voltage up given you can go 125% higher in current on these chargers which would give you 52.5A for the 48's and 125A for the 12's (not that you would need it given the 2s2p 48's would max out at 105)
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The total power a RSP2000 can deliver when used on 240Vac is about 2500W when in current limiting state ( 125%) If you crank the voltage up to 56V the max current will decrease a bit to follow the constant max power it can deliver. This is specified in a graph of their spec sheet.
Also you will need to add some Shottky diode in parallel to each output of RSP unit. This will protect against reverse current. It's IMPORTANT ! These diode must have higher current rating than the RSP unit it is connected to. finally I added one of these diode in serie of the main output too to avoid reverse current even if the meanwell are set to inferior voltage as the battery is. The battery MUST NEVER push current to the charger!
This is a simple basic rule for many charger too and I just wanted to ensure everything is ok. ;)
Also all paralleled meanwell must be connected with the current share function as stated in the spec sheet. This will ensure that they share 50% of the current each and there is none that is overcurrent compare to the next. it,s a simple pin that link together all parallel charger.
As well reading carefully the spec sheet is a must !
Good luck ;)
Doc
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I completely forgot about the diodes >_<
I will update the drawing later and make it look more technical with visio so it will be easier to read.
Do I need to worry about "charging curves" or real time limiting of these chargers? And if so do I just need to hook them up to the bike's BMS output (wherever that is) :)
I assume these would have to charge through the contractor on the bike given the auxiliary charging port is capped at 30 amps.
I really need to finish my total wire diagram for the bike. I think I have 10 connections to go and since it is a slow week for the zero streamline project it would be good to finish it now.
Thanks for your help doc.
Oh and you said a 50% current share shouldn't it be a 33.33% current share given there would be at minimal 3 chargers running at one time to get the 117V required to charge the bike? I also need to connect the stock chargers though I imagine I only need two in series to get the Sevcon to turn on and trip the contactor.
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I completely forgot about the diodes >_<
I will update the drawing later and make it look more technical with visio so it will be easier to read.
Do I need to worry about "charging curves" or real time limiting of these chargers? And if so do I just need to hook them up to the bike's BMS output (wherever that is) :)
I am curious about that as well. Is it really as simple as a constant-current / constant-voltage switchover, and how well do these RSP power supplies follow that curve? I assume Zero charges the Farasis batteries at > 1C in order to make a 95% charge in 1 hour, but I'm curious if or when they slow the rate of charge. Farasis rates their cells at 0.5C maximum recommended charge rate .. but they may be able tolerate a significantly higher charge rate without issue.
Oh and you said a 50% current share shouldn't it be a 33.33% current share given there would be at minimal 3 chargers running at one time to get the 117V required to charge the bike? I also need to connect the stock chargers though I imagine I only need two in series to get the Sevcon to turn on and trip the contactor.
No. Two RSP-48V are in series to make a stack, two stacks are in parallel.
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No. Two RSP-48V are in series to make a stack, two stacks are in parallel.
I thought you needed 117 volts to get a full charge? two 56's would be 112 volts which is why I included the extra 12 volt power supply in series. This for a 2013 S of course.
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Right, sorry.
All current passes through the RSP-2000 12V, up to 125A.
The RSP 12V is in series with the two RSP-48V stacks, which are in parallel.
The total current passing through the RSP-12V is split between the two RSP-2000 48V stacks, which should be configured to equally split the current (RSP-2000 48V maxes at around 42A + 25% = 52.5A, so two stacks in parallel could supply up to 105A total).
Therefore the entire assembly can supply up to 105A, or just over 1C charge rate for the ZF11.4 pack.