ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: kensiko on October 31, 2013, 01:24:02 AM
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Is it all right to let a zero S in a unheated garage during winter? It's getting below -22 Fahrenheit here sometimes.
Is it better to keep the battery plugged-in? I know Zero recommend to always let it plugged-in, but is it a necessity for extreme cold temperature?
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You are in Quebec like me... Never let you zero at outdoor temp during winter!
5.Keep your Zero S/DS connected to the charger when your motorcycle is sitting in storage or if it will be sitting unused for more than 7 days.
The power pack must be charged within 24 hours if fully discharged, and charged within 60 days if stored fully charged. Zero recommends that you plug in your Zero motorcycle after 7 days even if charged. Please leave your Zero motorcycle plugged in whenever possible.
Out of the normal temperature range charging and run-time times will vary. The power pack should not be used outside of the range of -7°C - 71°C (20°F - 160°F); the Battery Management System (BMS) will turn off the motor controller outside of this range.
Doc
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Here is the official recommendation from Zeros site:
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/owner-resources/Guidelines-for-Hot-and-Cold%20Weather-Operation-SV-ZMC-012-050.pdf (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/owner-resources/Guidelines-for-Hot-and-Cold%20Weather-Operation-SV-ZMC-012-050.pdf)
Best scenario is to put it in your living room if you live where it is cold.
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Could you hook up a small loft heater and leave it next to the bike when it gets really cold?
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I would try to use some electric floor heating foil and laminate it to the sides of the battery case. Maybe if it would fit on the inside of the battery case and connect it to the AC connection of the bike.
Regulate it via a thermostat and you have automatic battery heating while plugged in.
http://www.thermogroupuk.com/underfloor-heating/thermofoil-under-laminate-heating.html (http://www.thermogroupuk.com/underfloor-heating/thermofoil-under-laminate-heating.html)
Crazy idea or doable?
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Seriously, one of the great things about an electric motorcycle is that you can put it in your house in the winter. No gas or oil smell and then you have a motorcycle IN your house. What is better than that? :)
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Seriously, one of the great things about an electric motorcycle is that you can put it in your house in the winter. No gas or oil smell and then you have a motorcycle IN your house. What is better than that? :)
How big is your house? When I have my push bike in the house for the winter I have to climb over it to open the window. lol.
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I have space in the house, in fact I had my DRZ400S once in the basement. But now the space in the basement is almost all used by a child care center by my wife, not sure she will appreciate having a moto in there again.
I'll think about it, I may put a heater for cold temperatures.
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A heater with a big cardboard box around the bike should do a good job, I just have to be sure the temp will not be too high, not sure how those batteries explode ::)
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I have space in the house, in fact I had my DRZ400S once in the basement. But now the space in the basement is almost all used by a child care center by my wife, not sure she will appreciate having a moto in there again.
I'll think about it, I may put a heater for cold temperatures.
The day care kids would love having a motorcycle as a play structure. ;D
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I just have to be sure the temp will not be too high, not sure how those batteries explode ::)
I wouldn't be afraid of batteries explode I would be afraid of setting the cardboard on fire!
Maybe I have space in the house but my entrance will be to small and upwards a stairway!
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Directly heating the batteries with a DIY contact heater, you'd better be damned confident in your skills It doesn't take much over 100ºC (cell temp) to start a runaway. So I'm going to rank that as "crazy."
Just point a space heater at it on low, it doesn't take much Wattage to maintain a moderate temperature when it's continuous. I did the same for my gas bike that got finicky about starting when cold, I actually put a space heater on one of those lamp timers and had it kick on a couple hours before I left in the morning. No flammable cardboard box necessary. More waste without direct contact but it allows the bike much more latitude to self regulate its temperature.
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This is why I suggested a loft heater, they are designed to tick over at a low temperature to keep the loft space above dew point. Maybe you call it something different over the pond?
Something like this sat under the bike would do the job fine. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tubular-Heater-120w-Flex-Plug/dp/B001HAQQ7I#productDetails (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tubular-Heater-120w-Flex-Plug/dp/B001HAQQ7I#productDetails)
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My bike is always outside, no indoor parking possible. I have a rain cover but that's it.
Using the loft heater outside without any wind shielding will be useless. Any heat will be blown away before it reaches the battery enclosure.
This is why I think the thin floor heating foil directly on the enclosure is better. Inside the enclosure would be even better but is more tricky and risky.
I hope 2014 models will have heating when the bike is plugged in like the Brammo Empulse.
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My bike is always outside, no indoor parking possible. I have a rain cover but that's it.
Using the loft heater outside without any wind shielding will be useless. Any heat will be blown away before it reaches the battery enclosure.
This is why I think the thin floor heating foil directly on the enclosure is better. Inside the enclosure would be even better but is more tricky and risky.
I hope 2014 models will have heating when the bike is plugged in like the Brammo Empulse.
I was suggesting it to the OP. Using a heater outside would undo all your hard work of riding a zero emission vehicle anyway.
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Directly heating the batteries with a DIY contact heater, you'd better be damned confident in your skills It doesn't take much over 100ºC (cell temp) to start a runaway. So I'm going to rank that as "crazy."
Just point a space heater at it on low, it doesn't take much Wattage to maintain a moderate temperature when it's continuous. I did the same for my gas bike that got finicky about starting when cold, I actually put a space heater on one of those lamp timers and had it kick on a couple hours before I left in the morning. No flammable cardboard box necessary. More waste without direct contact but it allows the bike much more latitude to self regulate its temperature.
I thought about it and the plastic cardboard type would be best, not sure you know what I'm speaking about, it the plastic they use for big outdoor sign.
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I would look to get an electric heating blanket/mat.
Anything that gets not in conflict with "safety" for both the bike batteries and the house.
If you plan in leaving the bike for a few days unused leave the batteries at 30-35% charge…try to avoid leaving the bike plugged "infinitely" (I know Zero recommends that in the owner's manual but the rational behind has nothing to do with Lithium battery life)
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If you plan in leaving the bike for a few days unused leave the batteries at 30-35% charge…try to avoid leaving the bike plugged "infinitely" (I know Zero recommends that in the owner's manual but the rational behind has nothing to do with Lithium battery life)
What does it have to do with? I'm open to learn but my current plan is to abide by the manual.
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I would look to get an electric heating blanket/mat.
Anything that gets not in conflict with "safety" for both the bike batteries and the house.
If you plan in leaving the bike for a few days unused leave the batteries at 30-35% charge…try to avoid leaving the bike plugged "infinitely" (I know Zero recommends that in the owner's manual but the rational behind has nothing to do with Lithium battery life)
You would put this under the bike ? http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Heated-Outdoor-Walkway-Mat-by-Heattrak-New-Residential-Heating-Walkway-Mat-/251290110082?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item3a820ec882&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Heated-Outdoor-Walkway-Mat-by-Heattrak-New-Residential-Heating-Walkway-Mat-/251290110082?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item3a820ec882&vxp=mtr)
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I think LiPo423 means directly on the outside of the battery module. If you're going to do that, just be very sure that it can't ever for any reason exceed 80*C or so (whatever Zero has as the max storage air temp). Heating with direct contact just allows less opportunity for excess heat to convect away and it doesn't take much power to reach runaway temps if the thing is insulated by the mat wrapped around it.
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Is it better to keep the battery plugged-in? I know Zero recommend to always let it plugged-in, but is it a necessity for extreme cold temperature?
ALWAYS keep it plugged in or else your warranty will be void. I assume Zero can now tell if you haven't from the datalogging and if there is a battery problem and they refuse to take care of it under warranty then you will have effectively written your bike off if it needs a new battery and it is not covered.
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Noted !
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There has been a lot of discussion on this "leaving the battery plugged when not in use" well, I would disagree with that…Anyone just a little familiar with Lithium Polymer battery behavior would tell you not to do so…on the other hand I understand the warranty issue, but this has nothing to do with the chemistry behavior which is what it is (whatever Zero says)
Zero is just trying to avoid customers with low-battery issues and the potential warranty claims that this represents.
You may want to follow Zero's advice (warranty period), and then do the right thing after that ;)
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Lipo, what would you suggest then as the best way to get the longest battery life from a Zero that lives somewhere with a 4-6 month winter season?
Zero must be quite confident in their current recommendation of keeping the bike plugged in now as they have 2 years of field data to stand on and they just increased the battery pack warranty to 5 years so I am curious why there is still a debate about this topic. And no, I am not a battery or chemistry expert, just curious and want to get the best life from my battery pack.
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You may want to follow Zero's advice (warranty period), and then do the right thing after that ;)
If there was a consensus from the forum experts on what that 'right thing' is, I'd probably do it. Especially since I'm sure they'd help me out with any future warranty issues.
My bikes live in the unheated barn and will not have any aux heat applied. Period.
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There has been a lot of discussion on this "leaving the battery plugged when not in use" well, I would disagree with that…Anyone just a little familiar with Lithium Polymer battery behavior would tell you not to do so…
Well its a good thing the batteries aren't lithium polymer then. It doesn't matter anyway whether its right or wrong, i'd do what the warranty says when such an expensive component is concerned.
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Yes, our batteries are Lithium Polymer, the Zero S 2012 model has a Lithium Polymer Manganese battery (I have not checked the specific cathode material on the 2013 model, but I would think they are also Lipo's base).
Long storing is never recommended for lithium at full charge, if having to leave the pack unused for long periods of time it is better to do it at 30-40% capacity, check the voltage level periodically and eventually do another partial charge. If you charge the battery pack partially you extend the life-span (if you do a 40 miles ride/day, you do not need to fully charge the pack every time). Cell balancing is needed, but not everyday.
A well treated battery pack with last more than 8 years at a reasonable capacity level (in the 70-80% level)
Let's remember that batteries have to be used (cycle), and aging will happen anyway, not matter if we charge them 10 times or 100...
The last non-military (commercial) developed Lithium chemistries have been in use since 96'-2000 with limited track-record/experience (in non laboratory applications)
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I think maybe you mean to say Li-ion rather than lipo? The 2012 and 2013 bikes use Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide cells which are much more rugged than lipo and the theory is that leaving the bike fully charged and plugged in may result in a very slight reduction in capacity over a few years but this is preferable to having the owner charge periodically to maintain a lower SOC but forgetting about it and bricking the battery. Also it wouldn't take much of a fault in the bms or contactor for example to result in a continuous current drain. If that happened the charger may well save the day.
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Mmm…not sure if the 2013 do not have electrolyte gel (having checked that). I was told they are Lipo chemistry by a Zero guy.
Yes, I know the LiNiMnCoO2 behavior (the good and the bad).
BMS or main contactor high current drain? That is unlikely to be happening (no impossible, but very unlikely)
In any case, whatever cathode or anode material they are made of, they are all Lithium based (when mixing the different chemistries you gain or loose longevity, capacity, safety C rate, etc…) and the behavior is the same when talking about fully charged stored batteries. Not very healthy.
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Would this be enough ? It's low power.
http://www.sunbeam.com/sunbeam/BRF9HQS-R622-13A44.html (http://www.sunbeam.com/sunbeam/BRF9HQS-R622-13A44.html)
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This one looks nice, low consumption, probably enough…and it is cheap…cotton made would be better as you would avoid any electrostatic generation
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Got my new 2013 zero ds today got it home after riding for a while (23 miles) (note: snow on the ground about 22 degrees Fahrenheit) try placing in non heated garrage after spending a couple hours moving a few things around. Wont charge. Im sure its because of the temperature any good ideas on heating that have worked for other people? Like heated blanket, attic heater, maybe battery warmer?
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Lol obviously bad day to buy lol
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Nice looking bike. I like the green color.
Put it in your house and charge it. I have put both of my Zeros in my office in the house for the winter. It is one of the benefits of e bikes: no gas or oil smell.
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Some interesting findings for reference. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Losses (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Losses)
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If you can, put it on charge after riding .. the cells should still be warm(er) and may be able to kick-start the charge that way.
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Some interesting findings for reference. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Losses (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Losses)
Thanks JefRo, interesting article, I need to read through it properly when I have more time but apparently this is opposite to the findings of Tesla Roadster owners and, of course, Terry. Which chemistry do the Leafs use?
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Thanks windrider lol already got it in the house lol unfortunately I have a split level home so unless I wanna drive it up or down stairs I think im kinda stuck leaving it in the hall way (big time in the way) wish I had an office to throw it in
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Find a local storage service to charge it for a day. Or find a friend with a heated garage ;)
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Nice... I always like motorcycles in the house.
The important thing is that you got it charged up. The worst thing that you can do to these bikes is run the battery pack down and then not recharge it quickly.
Have fun with the new ride.
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Nice... I always like motorcycles in the house.
The important thing is that you got it charged up. The worst thing that you can do to these bikes is run the battery pack down and then not recharge it quickly.
Have fun with the new ride.
Thanks windrider just out of curiosity anyone ever have bike get too cold it wont start and move? Im using it for work and its parked in the parkinglot today its hovering between 1and 3 degrees havnt had a problem or anything just curious if it has a shut off protection for anything cold
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The second time I used mine was during the evening, 0 degrees C outside, a little snow. I got my hair cut and when I turned the bike ON again, there was flashing a code, 2 times followed by one time.
I turned the key OFF, then ON, and it worked.
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Nice... I always like motorcycles in the house.
The important thing is that you got it charged up. The worst thing that you can do to these bikes is run the battery pack down and then not recharge it quickly.
Have fun with the new ride.
Thanks windrider just out of curiosity anyone ever have bike get too cold it wont start and move? Im using it for work and its parked in the parkinglot today its hovering between 1and 3 degrees havnt had a problem or anything just curious if it has a shut off protection for anything cold
Zero has some guidence regarding cold weather operation
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/owner-resources/Guidelines-for-Hot-and-Cold%20Weather-Operation-SV-ZMC-012-050.pdf (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/owner-resources/Guidelines-for-Hot-and-Cold%20Weather-Operation-SV-ZMC-012-050.pdf)
Zero Motorcycles Guidelines for Cold and Hot Weather Operation and Storage
Cold weather operation of the motorcycle has no permanent impact on its battery pack/cells; however, the rider may notice a temporary reduction in range due to the effect cold temperature has on the amount of energy the pack/cells can release. The colder the weather, the greater the effect; so that, as compared to operation in 80F/27C ambient, at 30F/-1C ambient, the rider could experience a temporary reduction in range of up to 50% [2011 Model Year] or 30% [2012-2013 Model Year].
In extreme cold weather the motorcycle may also experience a temporary reduction in power and, correspondingly, achieved top speed.
It is not recommend that the motorcycle be ridden while its battery temperature is below 23F/-5C. If it is, its battery needs to be put on the charger at a temperature above 32F/0C as soon as the ride is concluded. It is worth noting that the Battery Management System (BMS) will not allow the battery to be discharged below -22F/-30C, which the absolute lowest discharge temperature prescribed by the cell manufacturer.
Storage of the motorcycle for the winter in a non-heated garage is acceptable, as long as (1) the coldest temperature in the garage does not fall below -31F/-35C, (2) the battery is left on the charger continuously, and (3) the battery is initially topped off at a temperature above 32F/0C. Storage temperatures below -31F/-35C may result in accelerated permanent decay of the battery performance, and hence it is not recommended. Above this temperature, working as a system with the BMS, the charger will ensure the battery survives winter storage with no permanent damage, even if the temperatures dip well below freezing for weeks at a time. Note that, to prevent battery damage, the BMS will prevent the charger from charging the battery at a temperature below 32F/0C. Again, as long as the battery was initially topped off by the charger above 32F/0C and remains on the charger through the winter at temperatures above -31F/-35C, the system will guard the battery from damage.
Hot weather operation of the motorcycle should not result in any noticeable performance changes. However, the BMS will not allow motorcycle operation and its associated battery discharge above 140F/60C, as measured at the battery.
Note that in hot temperatures (greater than 87F/31C for 2011-2012 Model Year) (greater than 110F/43C for 2013 Model Year), the charger reduces its charge current to the battery, increasing charge time accordingly; the hotter the ambient temperature, the greater the effect. Above a battery temperature of 131F/55C, the BMS will no longer allow charging.
Storing the motorcycle or its battery in direct sunlight in ambient temperatures above 105F/41C may result in accelerated permanent decay of battery performance, and hence it is not recommended.
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-22F is DAMN cold.
I went riding in low 20F temperatures a couple nights ago. Definitely not my desired riding conditions, but worked fine.
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The second time I used mine was during the evening, 0 degrees C outside, a little snow. I got my hair cut and when I turned the bike ON again, there was flashing a code, 2 times followed by one time.
I turned the key OFF, then ON, and it worked.
Interestingly, that exact experience happened to me this morning, leaving for work. Seattle has had some sub-0F dry temperatures this week, so there's been black ice here and there. My garage stays at a relatively mild temperature and on a charge overnight, so I feel like it's mostly within specifications.
Incidentally, I can say that riding over ice is way easier on the DS than on my V-Strom, which is much more top-heavy and heavier to shift. I can keep my feet planted and finely tune my torque in ECO mode so that slippage is much more controllable. I would not advise this to anyone else, of course, and I ride with full protective gear in case something goes wrong. I also stick to well-traveled roads, but my gravel alley is unavoidable.
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http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003AQWJAU/ref=cm_sw_r_udp_awd_7qkPsb168A851 (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003AQWJAU/ref=cm_sw_r_udp_awd_7qkPsb168A851)
Just ordered this to put motorcycle in small enough to keep the heat in easily but just big enough to fit the bike. Then small heater that will keep temp just above 32. Guess we will see how it works.
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Apparently wont show price and stuff not being logged into amazon prime got 6x6x6.5 for 123$
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Just incase anyone is interested works great and with that and two plug in 60 watt battery heaters works perfect
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It has been unusually cold here in the San Joaquin Valley (California). Several times recently I rode to work when the thermometer was reading a few degrees below freezing (a few degrees above freezing in the garage).
Curious, though:
The power pack should not be used outside of the range of -7°C - 71°C (20°F - 160°F); the Battery Management System (BMS) will turn off the motor controller outside of this range.
I would interpret the owner's manual as saying the bike won't operate outside those temps, but it doesn't say that it won't charge. The BMS stopping the motor controller would keep the bike from running, but it wouldn't stop the bike from charging - would it?
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My 2012 BMS Settings are:
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minchg Low Chg Voltage Cutoff 2500 mV
mintempdis Minimum Discharge Temp -30 C
maxtempdis Maximum Discharge Temp 60 C
mintempchg Minimum Charge Temp 0 C
maxtempchg Maximum Charge Temp 50 C
maxtempic Maximum Pack Interconnect Temp 60 C
baltol Balance Toler Charging 3 mV
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It should run to -30°C(-22°F) and let you charge higher 0°C(32°F)