ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Richard230 on April 29, 2013, 04:51:59 AM
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The May issue of City Bike hit the stands today and the 2013 11.4 kWh Zero S is featured on the front cover. The rider on the cover is shown performing a burn-out and holding the bike's charging cord with his left hand while doing so. Kind of cute, as is the yellow Zero S. The caption on the cover says "The electric bike gets real" and there is a three-page review of the model in the center of the magazine. The review was written by the magazine's editor, Gabe Ets-Hokin, and it is quite positive. Gabe describes how the Zero technology has advanced since 2009 and he goes on to describe the bike's features. Gabe says that the bike can carry around a 140-pound rider at a steady 70 miles per hour for a distance of 70 miles. He also says that the indicated top speed is 95 mph, which is an actual 91 mph, according to his iPhone's GPS.
Things that still need work are the rear brakes, which continue to be weak and the Fast Ace suspension remains under-damped and reacts harshly to small road imperfections .
The article says that Scot Harden, Zero's "VP for PR", when asked about the lack of ABS, says that the cost for ABS tooling is in excess of $600,000 and that is why it is not on the current models. However, they will be required by government regulations to have ABS on their bikes by 2016 - so the company is working on it. Mr. Harden says not to expect the type of improvements that you have seen to the Zero range in the past. The bike's basic platform will be pretty much stable and only relatively minor improvements will be made to the range during the next few model years.
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I just realized that the exact same article was published by Motorcycle-usa.com about three weeks ago:
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/796/15887/Motorcycle-Article/2013-Zero-S-Motorcycle-Review.aspx (http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/796/15887/Motorcycle-Article/2013-Zero-S-Motorcycle-Review.aspx)
It is interesting that the article by the magazine's editor came out online before it was published in his own magazine. ???
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The British press have started printing reviews so I had a look at 'Fast Bikes' and 'BIKE' today. I would describe them as biased reviews with their main point being that 0-60mph took 5.7 seconds which is "too slow". They did say that it was closing the gap to ICE bikes and that 40-80mph acceleration was good. The brakes were poor and suspension harsh. They concluded that although it has come on leaps and bounds electric bikes are still for wealthy early adopters and not a sensible choice. They totally missed the point effectively and the positive comments they made were quickly balanced with a negative although Fast Bikes did say that they wish everyone would try one, which has to be praise.
Bare in mind that the majority of British bike mags are funded by 1 or 2 manufacturers through advertising. BIKE will only give their highest accolades to Triumph and Fast Bikes to Suzuki. Hence the large adverts of each respectively on the rear cover. They are obsessed with speed despite the majority of riders wobbling around every corner (Im endlessly stuck behind sports bikes over here on my '12 S. Im told that Motorcycle Sport & Leisure were at the press day so I look forward to reading that review as they tend to be much more in depth and analytical.
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I'll bet the press said the same thing about motorcycles in 1908. I just finished reading a book about Triumph's history and those first 20 years of motorcycle manufacturing were pretty much horror stories for motorcycle owners. "LPA " was tossed around a lot. LPA stood for "light pedal assistance" and the book said that more than one motorcycle rider died of a heart attack trying to climb a hill by pedaling when the motor wasn't powerful enough to get the job done by itself. No wonder women never rode motorcycles in the early days. You had to be very strong and in really good shape to get anywhere, love being oily, dirty and greasy, as well as being able to rebuild a motorcycle engine every few thousand miles in order to keep it running.
Electric motorcycle technology is still in its infancy and the motorcycle press needs to keep that in mind when throwing darts. Lots of improvements are still needed, but the potential of the technology is endless. ;D
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I think that is taking the analogy a bit far Richard. the 2013 Zero's are already faster and more reliable than your average vintage 2 stroke (RD350 etc.). The practicality of an electric bike for trips under 100 miles has already exceeded that of ICE bikes in my opinion.
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I think that is taking the analogy a bit far Richard. the 2013 Zero's are already faster and more reliable than your average vintage 2 stroke (RD350 etc.). The practicality of an electric bike for trips under 100 miles has already exceeded that of ICE bikes in my opinion.
My point is that electric propulsion technology still has a long way to go. I was attempting to equate electric motorcycles to IC motorcycles of 100 years ago to show how considerable advancements to IC technology were made over the years and that we should expect similar progress in the future.
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Not to belabor the point, but here is a photo of a motorcycle built before 1910. Note the single-speed direct belt drive (the lever operates the "clutch") and axillary power unit (pedals). Now think of any modern motorcycle and compare the two and how they have advanced during the past century.
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And they went from a single speed belt, to a multi-speed gearbox with belt (like Harley and Buell) or Chain (most manufacturers)..... lol
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There's certainly significant potential for advancement, but in many ways the current state of EV design is far far beyond early motor vehicles. Design and tooling techniques are much more sophisticated than at the start of the 20th century.
I like the analogy to the early days of gasoline filling stations .. our current state of EV charging infrastructure is very primitive.
From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filling_station#United_States):
The increase in automobile ownership after Henry Ford started to sell automobiles that the middle class could afford resulted in a greater demand for filling stations. The world's first purpose built gas station was constructed in St. Louis, Missouri in 1905 at 420 S. Theresa Avenue. The second gas station was constructed in 1907 by Standard Oil of California (now Chevron) in Seattle, Washington at what is now Pier 32. Reighard's gas station in Altoona, Pennsylvania claims that it dates from 1909 and is the oldest existing gas station in the United States. Early on, they were known to motorists as "filling stations". The first "drive-in" filling station, Gulf Refining Company, opened to the motoring public in Pittsburgh in 1913.[12] Prior to this, automobile drivers pulled into almost any general or hardware store, or even blacksmith shops in order to fill up their tanks.
Blacksmith shops.. reminds me of Terry pulling in to the welding shop to charge.
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In comparison to EM's ICE bikes have evolved embarassingly slowly. The fundamentals of the typical 4 stroke 4 cylinder sportsbike haven't changed in 30 years. Overhead Cam designs have been around since the first world war. Improvements since then have been very marginal and development is slowing even more now. Viva la revolution!
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I think Richard had a good point that Electric is new in this application, and thus has a learning curve. Sure the motorcycle frame and geometry can be copied over from the experience of many years of gas bikes, but the electric aspect is the unknown.
I find it odd that the magazines like the acceleration from 40-80mph and not 0-40. So they really have the controller limit the motor at lower speeds? So tuning is still a learning curve because that doesn't sound too fun for the offraod rider who commonly travels below 20 mph for most of the ride.
Plus the electrc motorcycle industry feels like it is new because all the common brands we are used to do not make an electric bike to compete with Zero. So the few small players in this market give it a super newbie feel. These companies do not have the years of motorcycle experience. I had thought KTM could really come out with something great because they had the frame and suspension experience, but I have not heard much of anything about their electric motorcycle.
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I think it is kind of odd that the motorcycle press complains all the time about abrupt on/off IC motorcycle fuel injection throttle response, which is especially noticeable at slow speeds. Yet they say nothing about the very smooth throttle response of electric motorcycles (at least the ones that I am familiar with). I can understand the attraction of a fast takeoff from a stop, but frankly, it is not really something that you need all that often on the street. Usually there is a vehicle in front of you that limits your take off speed anyway. I rode all day today in slow-mo Eco mode (which is really slow from a stop on the 2012 Zero models) and still found it adequate for street riding. I had no problem keeping up with the cars and trucks around me when leaving a traffic signal stop.
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I think Richard had a good point that Electric is new in this application, and thus has a learning curve. Sure the motorcycle frame and geometry can be copied over from the experience of many years of gas bikes, but the electric aspect is the unknown.
True. There are also a lot of quality issues that Zero is still grappling with; I believe these will decrease with time as the company matures and refines its testing and quality design.
Zero reportedly sold around 1000 2012 bikes. If they have an average of 2500 miles apiece (for every Terry there's a dozen people that ride the bikes once or twice a month), then that's 2.5 million electric miles. Some issues will certainly crop up in time .. but I think Zero will mature in both design for reliability and testing to catch initial problems.
Ex: we haven't heard about any leaking fork seals for the 2013 bikes.
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Zero reportedly sold around 1000 2012 bikes.
Where are you getting this information?
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http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1301_2013_zero_s_first_ride/viewall.html (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1301_2013_zero_s_first_ride/viewall.html)
Such dramatic improvement over a short period of time has been rewarded in the marketplace: Zero has sold roughly 3200 electric motorcycles since 2009—and that’s just the start. Last year, the company boosted production to 1000 bikes annually and expects to double that volume in 2013.
Perhaps "boosted production to 1000 bikes annually" is not the same as "sold".
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Such dramatic improvement over a short period of time has been rewarded in the marketplace: Zero has sold roughly 3200 electric motorcycles since 2009—and that’s just the start. Last year, the company boosted production to 1000 bikes annually and expects to double that volume in 2013.
Perhaps "boosted production to 1000 bikes annually" is not the same as "sold".
No, I would think "production" = "sold". Anyway, thanks for pointing out the quote. Sales #'s are a bit of a mystery and curiosity to me.
I was just remembering DoctorBass's "zero internal" presentation ( http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2655.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2655.0) ) where they listed 277 bikes sold in 2012. I know, it was dated "Sept 2012" and I think it's obvious they had to have sold more than that.
For example from the thread ( http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2209.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2209.0) ) I did a quick scan of 2012 VIN's, kcoplan reported a VIN of 339; which is more indicative of higher sales. Hard to guess volumes based on VIN's however - did they assign a different series to DS and S models? If so 350*2 = 700 S & DS, throw in another 300 XU & X bikes and you're at 1000. On the low end, assume S & DS share and they only sold 150 X/XU and now you're at 500 bikes.
They have ~60 US/Canada dealers. I know that my dealer sold roughly 2 dozen 2012's. 60*24 = 1440. But my dealer covered all of Colorado and Colorado had a tax break that cut the price literally in half; so it seems like the average dealer would not have sold so many. Maybe 60*12 = 720?
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Perhaps "boosted production to 1000 bikes annually" is not the same as "sold".
No, I would think "production" = "sold". Anyway, thanks for pointing out the quote. Sales #'s are a bit of a mystery and curiosity to me.
I was just remembering DoctorBass's "zero internal" presentation ( http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2655.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2655.0) ) where they listed 277 bikes sold in 2012. I know, it was dated "Sept 2012" and I think it's obvious they had to have sold more than that.
For example from the thread ( http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2209.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2209.0) ) I did a quick scan of 2012 VIN's, kcoplan reported a VIN of 339; which is more indicative of higher sales. Hard to guess volumes based on VIN's however - did they assign a different series to DS and S models? If so 350*2 = 700 S & DS, throw in another 300 XU & X bikes and you're at 1000. On the low end, assume S & DS share and they only sold 150 X/XU and now you're at 500 bikes.
They have ~60 US/Canada dealers. I know that my dealer sold roughly 2 dozen 2012's. 60*24 = 1440. But my dealer covered all of Colorado and Colorado had a tax break that cut the price literally in half; so it seems like the average dealer would not have sold so many. Maybe 60*12 = 720?
I believe S/DS are serialized together and X/MX/XU are serialized together.
I would take that presentation with a small grain of salt. It had some placeholder graphics, text and misaligned images; clearly not the final draft. It could have easily had old sales information in it.. but I would have thought more than that many sales by September for sure.
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That figure of 1000 2012 Zeros sold seems kind of high to me, unless most of the sales are to various government agencies that would not be posting about their experiences on message boards. I always felt that police, military, ranger and other patrol services seemed like the perfect market for selling lots of electric motorcycles. Fleet sales are a lot easier and more profitable than selling to one customer at a time.
If most 2012 Zero owners visit this board and are reporting running problems, than I would say that is a very small percentage of owners having issues and Zero motorcycles are very reliable - much more reliable than BMW motorcycles, as an example. (Consumer Reports surveyed thousands of motorcycle owners and recently reported that about 75% of BMW motorcycle owners reported that they had mechanical, electrical and other problems with their bikes.)
On the other hand, if only 25 or so 2012 owners post on this forum - where are the rest hiding out? ??? You would think that anyone buying a new electric motorcycle would want to learn as much as possible about their new vehicle and would want to connect with others who are similarly affected with the early-adopter disease. ;)
That neat Zero owner spreadsheet created by benswing isn't quite up to 1000 owners yet. ???
BTW, I see that Terry (offthegrid) now has 25,000 miles on his much-modified 2012 Zero S. If he has had any "glitches" during his travels, I haven't heard about it. The only thing I have heard is that he blew up his motor when a bearing destructed. I think he is still using the same batteries that his bike came with, along with the new ones that he installed. Perhaps the failures and glitches that we have been hearing about are less of a design problem and more of a assembly or component issue?
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On the other hand, if only 25 or so 2012 owners post on this forum - where are the rest hiding out? ??? You would think that anyone buying a new electric motorcycle would want to learn as much as possible about their new vehicle and would want to connect with others who are similarly affected with the early-adopter disease. ;)
There are at least 3 or 4 times as many Vectrix' sold as Zero's. There are less are active owners on Vectrix forums than Brammo or Zero owners on their forums.
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There are at least 3 or 4 times as many Vectrix' sold as Zero's.
Citation needed...
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There are at least 3 or 4 times as many Vectrix' sold as Zero's.
Citation needed...
http://www.voltforum.cat/voltforum/YaBB.pl?num=1257251983/0#0 (http://www.voltforum.cat/voltforum/YaBB.pl?num=1257251983/0#0)
They reached 2880 bikes in March 2010
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Can't read it all, but 2880 TOTAL BIKES sold for Vectrix.
Compared to 3200 bikes sold by Zero since 2009.....
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1301_2013_zero_s_first_ride/viewall.html (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1301_2013_zero_s_first_ride/viewall.html)
Vectrix filed for bankruptcy in Sept 2009, was resold to Gold Peak later that year. So for part of 2009, all of 2010 and some of 2011 no bikes were produced or sold.
That's far from 3-4 times as many Vextrix sold than Zero.... in fact, Zero has sold 11% more bikes than Vectrix, going by those numbers alone.
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Can't read it all, but 2880 TOTAL BIKES sold for Vectrix.
Compared to 3200 bikes sold by Zero since 2009.....
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1301_2013_zero_s_first_ride/viewall.html (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1301_2013_zero_s_first_ride/viewall.html)
Vectrix filed for bankruptcy in Sept 2009, was resold to Gold Peak later that year. So for part of 2009, all of 2010 and some of 2011 no bikes were produced or sold.
That's far from 3-4 times as many Vextrix sold than Zero.... in fact, Zero has sold 11% more bikes than Vectrix, going by those numbers alone.
Ah, thanks for that.
I was not aware of the high Zero numbers. Still I think Vectrix has sold a few more bikes and not less. I found a 3x00 VIN on visforvoltage dated in 2011.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that even with multiple 1000's bikes sold there is little activity on forums.
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Since they call the Zero S a streetfighter, it needs to have good acceleration off the line, which it does. I want to get out ahead of traffic and not be stuck in it and risk people braking in front of you, changing lanes, etc. My experience is that people will race you off the line if you have a slower bike. Once you are clearly out in front, they back off a bit....as if cowering in shame at losing out to a motorcycle. I have looked everywhere and cannot find the 0-60 mph time for the 2013 Zero S. Anyone know?
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As there is a lot of excitement about acceleration. Here are the Zero 2013 numbers...
S: 5.3 seg
XU: 5.5 seg
FX: 3.9 seg
MX: 4.3 seg
Take these numbers with a small grain of salt - I can guess at Lipo423's source, and let's say it's not 100% official. But they should be a good ballpark number.
Until a publication performs an actual instrumented test - or an owner gives us a better ballpark number - they'll have to do.
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Still, it's not like you have to get the revs up and pop the clutch to do this. It is deceptively sneaky to stand there looking around and take off that fast. On my Gixxer 1000, everyone knows my intentions just from the sound. Thanks for the info.
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I have a 2012DS ZF9 that is much weaker, but a lot of people (+motorcyclist) telling me the bike accelerate really fast.
I think the lack of sound and the constant torque make you underestimate the acceleration a bit. At the traffic light no (standard)car could outperform my up to know.
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I have a 2012DS ZF9 that is much weaker, but a lot of people (+motorcyclist) telling me the bike accelerate really fast.
I think the lack of sound and the constant torque make you underestimate the acceleration a bit. At the traffic light no (standard)car could outperform my up to know.
That is optimistic for a 2012, very few car drivers ever floor it from the lights. Up to 40ish mph my friends 2.0 VW Passat estate keeps up no problem and that is around a 9 second 0-60. The 2012 bikes are slow off the line, 2013 is a different story.
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My experience is that people will race you off the line if you have a slower bike
I never had that problem with my stock 2012 DS. Maybe till 10-15mils/h its a bit slow but than... I don't talk off racing against ICE bikes!
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Even in Eco mode on my 2012 S, I have no problem keeping ahead of most all traffic away from a stop light - as long as I am not trying to take off up a steep hill from a stop. I rode around all day yesterday in Eco mode, including up hill on the freeway, and had no problem passing all of the other cars and trucks on the road. My bike will go 83 mph up a 6% grade in Eco mode, which is faster than I really need to travel. So I have no complaints about power, just about how fast the fuel bars disappear at that speed. ;)
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Still, it's not like you have to get the revs up and pop the clutch to do this. It is deceptively sneaky to stand there looking around and take off that fast. On my Gixxer 1000, everyone knows my intentions just from the sound. Thanks for the info.
Yep. That's really the thing - electric motors feel very unstressed even when completely maxed out. The power delivery is effortless - so it feels much stronger than it actually is, versus a combustion engine which can either scream or lug.
In normal traffic I have no problems zipping past almost everyone, even in Eco .. simply because most people don't floor their vehicles off the line. 300 hp but only using 50 hp. Very inefficient in a combustion engine.
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I had an informal stoplight drag race with a Harley dresser rider the other day. He was interested in the Zero, and I wanted to compare my acceleration (2012 DS9) to something else I'm familiar with.
His bike had the typical "first level" Harley performance mods (freer-flowing pipes and air filter and ECU reprogramming to support those). His daughter also was on the back, though she may have had about as much influence on his rig as she has on the Earth's rotation :).
Anyway, we were neck-and-neck to about 50 mph (the speed limit). He jumped off the line a bit faster, but in typical Zero fashion my torque started to come on at 10-15 mph and I closed the gap.
All that said, I've never had a problem keeping up with (or ahead of) normal traffic. But I wouldn't say no to some more off-the-line grunt.
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That speaks to how slow and heavy most Harleys are.
The 2012 bikes are quite slow by non-Harley bike standards, at least comparing 0-60 times. Above 10 mph or so it feels nearly as fast as my former GS500 .. and on the few curvy bits of road I felt like I could go as fast or faster on the Zero.
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Yeah, I'll get a better idea of whether the Zero's acceleration characteristics will be a problem once I move to the city (soon I hope) and start riding in heavier traffic.
I'd love, however, to one day bolster my justification for riding electric by saying "because it's fast" :)
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I doubt it will impress anyone on the track, but it's definitely fast enough to deal with anything on the street. You can jump in and out of holes in the traffic like everyone else was standing still.
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I doubt it will impress anyone on the track, but it's definitely fast enough to deal with anything on the street. You can jump in and out of holes in the traffic like everyone else was standing still.
Yes, the bike is nothing but nimble, agile, and zippy in traffic. It's very easy to lanesplit, or just get ahead of a traffic wave to avoid negotiating with negligent drivers. The only competition are supersport bikes and cars specifically bought/modified for racing (around my area, that basically means people with more money to spend than you and less taste!).