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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: craigq on April 09, 2013, 03:37:10 AM
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Tried to do the first ride of the season this afternoon, put the battery in the XU and connected the wiring. Had the battery connected to the charger for storage in accordance with Zero's instructions. Key in the "on" position, notice the exclamation mark warning indicator flashing in a pattern. 2 blinks, pause, then 4 blinks. This doesn't look good:
Cause: Battery Management System (BMS) Throttle Disable
Solution: Contact Zero or your dealer.
First year of the two-year warranty runs out soon :'(
The charger is doing an odd pattern too, it looks like it thinks the battery is charged, the 100% charge LED is lit solid, then it changes to the 80% charge LED flashing, so the charger and BMS are balancing or the BMS stopped charging because one or more of the cells has reached maximum voltage.
The BMS indicators on the rear of the pack looks like all is normal...
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My 12 SZF9 also flashed at me thus. Zero made a new board out the 2013 parts and sent it over. I'm at the moment experiencing very sluggish throttle response.
+ m
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Thanks for the information. Did you get the board replaced through a dealer or did you contact Zero directly and they shipped it to you?
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No reply yet from emailing Zero tech support. How long do they usually take?
The BMS on the power pack is now indicating that:
"Power Pack Unbalanced - Leave on Charger for 72 Hours"
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Zero is calling it a BMS board failure, and are shipping out a replacement. The local Zero dealership is going to collect the bike when it arrives, then they'll be able to see if it repairs the fault. Zero mentioned the dealer needs the software to program/configure the board etc.
This is my 5th bike since 2004, and the first failure/no-start other than the OEM battery failing on the first bike after 2 years :'(
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The BMs seem to not do a correct balancing job...
I guess if you could open the pack and rebalance all cell bank manually it would give you full bar on battery charge indicator... but once you recahrge t the next time it wont balance perfectly and just get worst over the next cycle...
Doc
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Zero is calling it a BMS board failure, and are shipping out a replacement. The local Zero dealership is going to collect the bike when it arrives, then they'll be able to see if it repairs the fault. Zero mentioned the dealer needs the software to program/configure the board etc.
Any update on this?
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I've got the same issue. I'll post when I get a solution.
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No update, will type up one when there's activity.
The last I heard was on 15-APR-2013, the board was being prepared for shipment to the local dealership. It probably takes about 5-7 business days for USPS shipping from California to Quebec, and Zero didn't mention if the board was in-stock or if they had to build one so I've no idea when it will arrive.
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I spoke to someone on 4/26/13 and emailed my power pack serial number the next day. Sound like the same issue. No response as of yet. I've owned the bike for one month. It has been functional for one week of that month. I hope this can be rectified soon.
I wonder what is going to break next honestly. Thinking about looking into lemon laws here in Florida.
I hope we both get our bikes running soon. I'll keep you posted.
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I called the "local" dealership today inquiring about an update. They received the replacement BMS board from Zero. However, they don't have the cable required to connect their computer to the bike (BMS board, MBB?) to reprogram/synch them. Zero didn't ship one with the replacement board. I imagine it will be another week or two.
There are no lemon laws in Ontario, one can either pursue recompense through a lawyer, or attempt arbitration by going through an entity called CAMVAP (which a manufacturer has to participate in, not all do).
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Latest update from 3-JUN: The dealership is still waiting for the cable from Zero, no ETA.
I've started looking for a low-cost ICE bike, probably going to be in the 125-250cc range...
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Latest Update: Phoned Zero Warranty 1-888 today, 17-JUN. They stated the back-ordered cable was now in-stock and they were shipping it out to the "local" dealership.
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just a general comment.
find the response of Zero is very swift - including sending parts if they are in stock. yet to include all that is needed is not allways happening. Dealers to fix it ? what dealers ?
Zero tries to often to go through ICE dealer that do NOT HAVE A CLUE on how to spell ELECTRIC. does not help - and my local dealer gave up (anyway useless) - I rather go direct.
A challenge is that despite trouble shooting with us "end-users" to many things might be wrong. so we get part, put it in - at a weekend or so and still no luck. I am frustrated that we do not have an end-to-end guide and then troubleshoot. I get it in piecemeal, Zero sends out parts - brushes, controller, throttle, motors .... still no good.
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Today's update: The local dealership received the cable. They don't have the "software" to communicate with the BMS. The Zero warranty rep I spoke with pointed out all they need is terminal emulator to set the date/timecode on the BMS. All this waiting for a timestamp...
Manlytom: A troubleshooting guide, or better yet a complete factory service manual, would be a great thing to have. Does anyone know if Zero has these available for purchase? Every other motorcycle manufacturer does...
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Any terminal emulator will work fine, ex Tera Term (http://ttssh2.sourceforge.jp/index.html.en).
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The Zero tech at the local dealership replaced the BMS yesterday, I collected the battery pack today and went for a short test ride. Things seem fine :)
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Awesome, craigq. I hope that fixes your problems for good so you can get some riding in : p
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Key in the "on" position, notice the exclamation mark warning indicator flashing in a pattern. 2 blinks, pause, then 4 blinks. This doesn't look good:
It happened to me now (13200km) :'(
I drove the bike 30km on Saturday connected it as always to charge and at Monday morning it didn't work!
The Sevcon is fine, I have the tools to test it. All values look fine.
The BMS don't display any fault (LEDs at the Battery pack) the battery voltage is up. If the bike is off it even blinks the BMS OK information.
When charging it looks normal the 1 to 4 LEDs and than all 4 (full) I am not sure but it should stop doing this and blinking different at the end?
Mine seems not to stop!
It's really weird.
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Get in contact with Zero, if it's the 2-4 code they'll likely remotely diagnose it as a bad BMS board based on your observations/testing. The also probably know the range of serial numbers affected, as part of their NHTSA recall procedure: NHTSA Campaign Number: 12V310000
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchResults?searchType=ID&targetCategory=R&searchCriteria.nhtsa_ids=12V310000 (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchResults?searchType=ID&targetCategory=R&searchCriteria.nhtsa_ids=12V310000)
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Thanks Craigq,
I have done the waterproofing recall, but maybe some corrosion is under the protection paste!
I will see what turns out!
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This is very slack on zero part, becoming a dealer should be supported with every diagnostic aid, cables software, etc, and every windows PC comes with hyper terminal as part of the windows OS, and can DL many free terminal software of the net.
Zero needs to standardize there cable to be USB or blue tooth for software updates by dealer or end user, every other smart consumer products allow this.
I think most zero customers would have more technical knowledge than the dealers, these bikes are more computer than mechanical.
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USB is a home standard, CAN-Bus OBDII is a automobile standard, I suspect Zero chose that because dealers understand it better, and the Sevcon requires it anyway (least from 2012 bikes onwards)
Problem is that EV's are so radically different that OBDII does'nt really apply to them, but as the major components of the Zero still need to talk CAN-Bus then it kinda makes sense to break that out.
You only need an IXXAT interface to talk to the bike, and they are not that expensive in the world of workshop tools.
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I've also experienced the 2-4 BMS Throttle Disable fault code on the instrument panel on my 2012 Zero S ZF6. The BMS LEDs all indicate normal behavior both during charging state and in running state.
It functioned normally right up to the point that on Monday morning, I took it off the charge and then hit the error code when flipping off the kill switch.
Mine has about 4000 miles on it, and had the firmware updated and BMS waterproofing performed a couple of months ago. Up to this point, it had been running flawlessly and I've never experienced indications of the "glitch" or "glitch 2.0". I always run in sport mode as my daily commute is only about 11 miles round trip and mostly speeds under 50mph.
My dealer AF1 in Austin has been great to work with (even over the holidays). They've picked up my cycle this morning and will run some diagnostics to see if they can try to reset it or if I'll need to have the board replaced.
I find it really helpful when people post any issues along with resolution that they experience so I'll post an update when I it's resolved.
Here's to many more electric miles for us all in 2014!
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Just wanted to post a quick followup. I'm back on the road again, but they did end up having to replace the board. Since it was at the dealer, I ended up getting the most recent updated firmware at the same time.
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I received the recall notice today in the mail for this fault. It's too bad it was never repaired while I owned the bike. I've PM'd the new owner...
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I received the recall notice today in the mail for this fault. It's too bad it was never repaired while I owned the bike. I've PM'd the new owner...
Looking into it
Thanks Craig
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Same problem too. Happened today after work. Nothing like calling your wife to get the truck and buying a ramp to hall this thing on a nice warm summer day. Many problems with this bike: 1st it was in the shop for firmware recall, then it had a charge controller problem (replaced ccu twice), now its the BMS board. I was close to filing New Hampshire lemon law papers a $50 fee before, now I will have to do it. Can't trust this bike if it has problems as much as this.
As of today its been more than 30 days in the shop for warranty repairs and I have had it.
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I left my 2012 Zero S ZF9 plugged in and unused for 1.5 months while I was on vacation. First time out for a ride afterwards and I get the 2-4 error flashing at me. Crap! Thank you to all the previous posts here in this forum for advice and info.
I called Zero at 7am the next morning and was greeted by Chris who was very knowledgeable and helpful. He said I had no recourse but to replace the BMS circuit board.
Some history: I bought this bike used on Craigslist about 3 months ago with 1,800 miles on it and have loved it ever since (despite the breakdowns prior to the firmware upgrade for the motor encoder position signal drift). The BMS board was weatherized per the recall back in Oct. 2012 but Chris said it is still prone to corrosion. The new boards are fully encapsulated in weatherproof goo.
Despite being 6 months beyond the 2-year warranty, Chris is mailing me a new BMS circuit board at no cost. I will have to cover the estimated one hour of labor to have it installed at the dealer.
While I'm bummed at missing a week or two of our rarely nice Seattle weather, I'm happy with how Zero has handled this small setback for me. While I only have 3,800 miles on it now, I hope to get to 100,000 miles in the years ahead so I can justify buying another one! :-)
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Hey bike is fixed now with new BMS board guess next time I will spend the fifty and put papers in as soon as there is a problem. ;D
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It happened again :-X (2012DS)
I rode the bike on Monday charged it and want to meet an Zero friend today. The bike is doing the 2-4 flashing. It is exactly like the first time on November 2013.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2813.msg17512#msg17512 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2813.msg17512#msg17512)
Now I have only 15500km so it didn't hold for more than 2300km and I used the bike little because my FX is so much fun!
I have reset the BMS with no help. I read out the BMS and it is the same error as last time the 5V of the BMS is dead!
Does someone has had the error a second time? My new BMS was the completely silicone covered one there should be no corrosion.
I have disconnect the board and reinstalled to be sure it is not a contact problem, but it seams the 5V regulator is dead again.
Has any one read out the BMS and can confirm it was also a 5V missing problem or may I have an other Defect at the bike killing the BMS after short time.
Resetting BMS...
*************************************************************
* *
* Zero Motorcycles BMS *
* *
* Board Name : BMS_PCB_ASSY_12MY_IMPL *
* Board PN : 41-03485 *
* Board Rev : 02 *
* Firmware Name : FIRMWARE_BMS_12MY_IMPL *
* Firmware PN : 75-03610 *
* Firmware Rev : 26 *
* Built : Dec 20 2011 13:19:58 *
* Pack Type : S/DS *
* Num Bricks : 3 *
* Serial Num : 2012_bms_f187bd_00873 *
*************************************************************
- Reset Source: SWR
- Checking Cell Voltages..................... Okay
- Checking Cell Variance..................... Okay
- Checking Cells vs Groups................... Okay
- Checking Balance Circuit................... Okay
- Checking 5V Supply.........................
ERROR: 5V Supply Out of Spec 12 mV
FAILED
Running
PASSWORD> PACK IS Low!, discharge = 0s uAH
PACK IS Low!, discharge = 0s uAH
PACK IS Low!, discharge = 0s uAH
PACK IS Low!, discharge = 0s uAH
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New BMS and it runs like new ;D
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Did you have to pay for the replacement BMS?
Or did Zero replace it under warranty?
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War noch unter Garantie. ich habe Deine Posts schon gelesen. Ich hatte noch nie Probleme mit der Garantie, aber jetzt ist es dann bei meiner DS auch rum, hatte nochmals Glück.
Ich drück Dir die Daumen, dass vielleicht doch noch was mit Garantie oder wenigstens nur Material-kosten geht.
Kostet das BMS wirklich 600€? Ich kenne die Zero X nicht wirklich, aber das BMS kann eigentlich nicht so teuer sein. Ich weiss wie das bei meiner DS aussieht und welche Bauteile ungefähr drauf sind!
Ist immer schade wenn wegen so etwas die Freude am Bike kaputt gemacht wird!
Gruß Thomas
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How does one reset the BMS?
I got stuck because I had no power when the outside temp was 106 F.
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The 2012 S/DS has a rubber plug at the front of the battery box there is the service connector of the BMS. Very close to it you see 2 buttons. If you press both together for approx 10 sec the BMS performs a reset.
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The 2-4 error code just happened to me for a 2nd time on my 2012 Zero S. :-( I just hit 5,000 miles last night coming into work. The BMS board and the main board were both replaced just 1,300 miles ago. Zero paid for the parts, but I shelled out $380 in labor costs. I love this bike, but these are major let-downs. I sit here at work waiting for my wife to come pick me up.
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I had the 2-4 code happen and the difficult thing is that the dealer needs to synchronise the time base on the new BMS in order for it to work or else it would just be plug and play. It would be interesting to know why the 5v feed is failing? ...
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I believe it would run without the correct time. The problem is it will work for ZF9 and ZF6 - if the 3kW/h Battery pack is the same BMS I don't know.
There is the need to set the correct type!
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Zero needs to make things more simple for user to check and setup. Use Bluetooth/Wifi phone app to sync time and do simple fix. Can bus connects everything, should be able to communicate using that and smart phone. No need for custom cables and software.
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Since 2013 every thing is connected by CAN Therefore you really can get the data at one point. 2012 it was different.
Also the RS232 was pasword protected at 2012. You only got a simple start up information without PW.
2013+ has now 3 password levels but without you can also get some good information.
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Good morning,
It looks like Queen's song knocked on my door yesterday -another one bites the dust...the 2-4 error code showed up, and the bike does not work...
I did get the so called "BMS water protection silicone" a couple of years ago -which is not-, as the first released PCB's had no conformal coating anyway...
Have you guys replaced the BMS board by yourselves? (I see no difficulties in performing the job and had the impression that some of you did, but would like to know)
The Spanish dealer has made the claim (the owner Alejandro is a great guy). Hopefully they will ship it under warranty as they did to some of you...
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Hi Lipo423,
to replace the BMS is no problem but it needs to be set correct to a ZF9 or ZF6.
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Thanks for your prompt reply.
It looks like there are -now- two different parts numbers for 6 & 9Kw battery
Will let you know how this ends up...
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OK so here we go again... Left my 2012 ZF9 for 10 days on charge in dry garage whilst I was away on hols. Just tried to fire up, but now getting the dreaded 2-4 throttle disable fault. Charger and display indicate full charge and all ok. Interestingly throttle works during power up, but cuts out as soon as sequence finishes.
Zero replaced battery pack and fitted new waterproof BMS in January, but the bike has still only completed 5000 miles. I know there is no water in the pack this time, so at a complete loss as to the problem.
I did notice the BMS lights are different - just the left red led flashing briefly once every half second or so. I couldn't see that pattern specified, but maybe someone more knowledgeable might recognize it?
Just feeling a somewhat gutted! I'll call Streetbike tomorrow and see if they can offer any advice.
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Streetbike got back to me today with the expected news. No warranty is given with the replacement waterproofed BMS and no upgrade scheme available here in the UK.
Looks like a dead-end for now...
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I washed my 2014 S today and got the 2-4 throttle disable lights. I got the hair dryer into the rear anderson plug and all worked again.
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The same has happened to me this morning. I would guess its moisture related because a lot of the descriptions are after the bike has sat without use over a weekend, holiday, or similar, which was also my case.
I'll definitely try drying out the aderson plug. Which one was it hippie? Did you disconnect it first?
I see that Streetbike has announced they're selling Zeros again in the UK. Good news. I also received a letter about the upgrade scheme; I'll have a look at the details when I'm home.
Wes
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The anderson plug under the seat that takes off board chargers - I think the water might've got into the two pins that provide a signal to the bms to close the contactor when charging.
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Just went out and unplugged the bike at my work garage (has the 240V Power Pack charging adapter) and getting the 2-4 flash error. The bike was showing 74% charge when I plugged it in after driving into work, but now shows 00% charge and flashing the error code. All other electrical items work fine on the bike, just flashing error and flashing "Green" run symbol and no throttle.
Send a message to my dealership and waiting for them come into work and tell me how to proceed from here. Reading through this thread indicates that water/moisture is the problem that causes the BMW board to fail. Just need to figure out how to get the bike towed to the dealer from my work garage.
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Dealer took the bike in today. They were downloading the logs when I left. Nice thing about buyer for a big dealership, they gave me a loaner bike until my problem is resolved.
https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/103815912141009624106/6390022278862880290
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Dealer took the bike in today. They were downloading the logs when I left. Nice thing about buyer for a big dealership, they gave me a loaner bike until my problem is resolved.
https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/103815912141009624106/6390022278862880290
That is the nicest loaner bike I've ever heard of (BMW R1200RS). Most are happy to get a 650cc bike.
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Dealer took the bike in today. They were downloading the logs when I left. Nice thing about buyer for a big dealership, they gave me a loaner bike until my problem is resolved.
https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/103815912141009624106/6390022278862880290
After being at the dealership for 2 weeks I picked up my Zero SR today. The service manager said they had to do a BMS update and that I could have done it from my Zero app myself. So instead of me having to tow my bike to the dealer and waiting two weeks, Zero could be notifying owners about updates automatically via e-mail (since we downloaded the app) that one is available. For a California company they are not working like a Silicon Valley operation.
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Dealer took the bike in today. They were downloading the logs when I left. Nice thing about buyer for a big dealership, they gave me a loaner bike until my problem is resolved.
https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/103815912141009624106/6390022278862880290
After being at the dealership for 2 weeks I picked up my Zero SR today. The service manager said they had to do a BMS update and that I could have done it from my Zero app myself. So instead of me having to tow my bike to the dealer and waiting two weeks, Zero could be notifying owners about updates automatically via e-mail (since we downloaded the app) that one is available.
That's only true of 2017 models. Most owners here cannot do that and we're not attuned yet to ask a new owner to check for updates.
There's certainly still a missed opportunity in this space even for owners of older models just to be aware of updates, etc. Presumably they're aware of this and just going through a painful improvements process.
For a California company they are not working like a Silicon Valley operation.
I don't think most Silicon Valley operations are that competent. Many just throw money at problems and lie their way through it. I work in the area and must say I rejected an enormous number of companies that most think would be fine employers...
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Notice after getting the bike back from the dealer they left one of the seat bolts out and the front the seat was not installed correctly; you could see the orange power cables from the side under the seat. When I pointed it out to them the service clerk question whether it actually came in with both bolts installed. Thank goodness the owners stepped in and got him squared away on speaking with customers (purchased $60K worth of bikes from this one dealership over the last 16 months). New seat bolts were delivered 5 days later with only a simple apology it took so long. Evaluating my continuing relationship with the dealership if they don't step up and offer me some type of service discount on my next visit after having my Zero down for 3 weeks to address a software update and service not putting the bike back together correctly.
One nice changed I notice after the software update is the adjustable top speed can now be changed to 110 mph, compared to the previous 106 mph ( as tested before). Might need to find a nice place to see if the new top speed is actually obtainable or not.
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...after getting the bike back from the dealer they left one of the seat bolts out and the front the seat was not installed correctly; you could see the orange power cables from the side under the seat. When I pointed it out to them the service clerk question whether it actually came in with both bolts installed....
The seat is never installed properly after bringing my '16 DSR into the local dealership. I bring my own tools (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6346.0) everytime and check anything I think might be important until I get home, and then I check *everything* twice. Usually I catch a few things during the hand-off, and have one or two phone conversations from home about some missing parts. I don't think traditional moto service shops are a good fit for Zero Motorcycles save for the legal framework required to title and register 2-wheeled vehicles at least in USA.
All that said having a 2016 model year bike there's not much of an option for me to commission the motor, perform warranty service work, or software upgrades and diagnosis.