ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: trikester on November 11, 2012, 08:04:30 AM
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I rode the 2013 S today and all I could say was OMG!!! It was like having a crotch rocket under me! A super bike! Handling? Wow it is good!
I like everything about the bike except the location of the helmet lock, WTF! It has got to be about the most stupid location one could find to put a helmet lock. ZERO designers - What is wrong with the "traditional" location on the rear frame? ???
Other than that - what a bike!!!!!!!!! Fantastic!!!!!!!!!! ;D
Trikester
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Pics or it didn't happen!! (Read: envyyyyy!)
:)
+ m
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Where is the helmet lock?
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Way cool - amazing that Zero already has 2013 demo bikes available to check out. My local dealer promised to call me when they get some in so I can do a test ride.
As far as the helmet lock location - at least there is a helmet lock!
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Agree, at least there is one.
It is on top of the "tank" but down in a hole. It's very hard to clip in a full face helmet when the storage unit is not there. Almost impossible when the pull out storage compartment in place.
My opinion of this bike is that there is no reason any ICE rider would not want to ride one of these unless he or she needed to go farther than the battery could take them, or "refill" and get going sooner. This is (to use an overworked term) an awesome bike!
As far as demos being available yet I don't know. I had a ZERO factory connection that got me this chance to ride one.
I've already put my order in to Hollywood Electrics for the 2013 FX ZF5.7 (since I ride more dirt than pavement and to reduce weight). I will also go with chain drive on that bike as I have on both of my DS's. The good news there is that they have changed to the more rugged 520 chain replacing the always stretching 420's. 8)
H.E. will be selling my 2010 DS ZF6 for me soon. It has the xenon headlamp I added but I have changed it back to the stock 16" rear wheel.
Trikester
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Most BMWs have a simple hook under the seat for the purposes of a helmet lock. The idea isn't that you'd hook your helmet D-rings there, but that you'd get an accessory cable that hooks over that hook and goes through your helmet's D-rings or chin and loops back to the hook. (The cable is not provided with the bike as they intend you to use the side bags for primary helmet storage...) A similar cable could probably make the Zero helmet lock much more feasible...
Also, why the chain drive on the DS's? Is there a problem with belts in the dirt?
Personally that is one of the main detractors for me considering an Empulse at this point. After my first bike I kept telling myself "no more chain drive" and yet I keep running into bikes that I like that use chain. When I was shopping before I got my F650 I actually went to the BMW dealer thinking "at least I know I won't end up with chain drive" and ended up falling in love with the only chain drive bike they ever sold...D'oh! Now I'm on a shaft-drive RT and finally planning to sell my F650 and looking at the Empulse. D'oh! And, I'm itching a lot to pull the trigger on the Empulse, but I'm also hedging a wait for the '13 Zeros...
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Rocks and debris will cut or damage a belt if it gets caught between belt and pully, that why most belt drives bikes have a full lower belt guard to stop that happening.
Because the zero has no belt guard, best for road use, not recommended for dirt , a steel chain will just crush any rocks or sticks.
I heard the zero belt was not too expensive, and belt technology has gotten lot better.
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Since my Zero S does not have a helmet lock, what I do is to place my helmet on the "tank" and fasten it to the center of the handlebar with a short locking cable run through the chin guard of my full-face helmet.
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Dammit this really bugs me. Two bikes in two years and year three I got to buy a third one just to keep up?
Why can't Zero knock it off and stop making these bikes so much better every year?
Stop working so hard!
Take some time off.
Relax.
It's not like Zero has any competition. ;D
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Yes, "firepower" covered it. I get into some pretty remote places and a rock breaking a belt would be very bad for me!
Also using a chain with a master link makes it possible for me to remove the chain, for lower rolling resistance, if I had to push the bike any distance, for any reason. I also carry chain repair parts and tools (fortunately, never had to use them).
That said, I don't like chain drive and I wish it wasn't necessary for me to use it for reliability.
BTW - Several months ago I was riding through town here and saw a broken motorcycle belt lying in the middle of the road. I thought; some poor rider had a bad day!
Trikester.
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The beautiful 2013 ZERO S showed up at the regular monthly VintageBike OC meet (Huntington Beach CA) today. It attracted a lot of attention even though it is obviously not vintage. A lot of questions were asked of its rider.
I rode one of my Yamaha trike conversions to the meet. You can see both in this month's VintageBike OC photo gallery. www.vintagebikeOC.com (http://www.vintagebikeOC.com)
Trikester
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I never quite understood why the fully-enclosed chain guards that were used on many European and Japanese motorcycles during the 1950's and 1960's were completely abandoned by the manufacturers. The last one I can recall (other than on a motor scooter) was the enclosed chain used on the Yamaha 920 V-twin "sport" bike that was sold during the early 1980's. Its chain ran in a fully-enclosed grease bath and I never heard of one wearing out or needing much maintenance.
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I never quite understood why the fully-enclosed chain guards that were used on many European and Japanese motorcycles during the 1950's and 1960's were completely abandoned by the manufacturers. The last one I can recall (other than on a motor scooter) was the enclosed chain used on the Yamaha 920 V-twin "sport" bike that was sold during the early 1980's. Its chain ran in a fully-enclosed grease bath and I never heard of one wearing out or needing much maintenance.
If Zero started putting a fully enclosed belt drive on the dirt and DS bikes then I would probably go back to belt drive. It sure is a lot quieter :)
Trikester
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Dammit this really bugs me. Two bikes in two years and year three I got to buy a third one just to keep up?
You don't have to buy a new bike : P
I had thought 2012 would be a real knee in the development curve. I was wrong.. the 2013s are a big upgrade. I'll probably stick with the 2012 for at least a couple of years.
It's not like Zero has any competition. ;D
Yeah.. it's not like there's a competing manufacturer who's also demoing bikes to customers, dealers, and should be shipping in the next couple of months..
Regardless, it's a moot point. Zero and Brammo both need to improve their bikes (and most critically, drop prices) to make bikes that appeal to more than the small niche they currently occupy.
Comparing the 2012 S vs the 2013 S, same price at $13995:
* 2013 gains passenger pegs ($300) that were formerly options
* 2013 gains a whole host of new features: smartphone integration, lockable storage, left-side drive belt, LED tail light
* 2013 gains a number of enhanced features vs 2012: large power increase, improved brakes, faster onboard charge (9.1 highway miles/hour vs 2012 5.2 highway miles/hour), CHAdeMO option
These are all very good things. But I wonder how much they really will grow the market. Most of the 2012 owners here purchased the ZF9 .. whether because the $2500 upgrade was seen as an easy choice or whether the ZF6 simply wasn't an option .. the market for $14k bikes is small. Selling a better $14k bike than they did last year will certainly help sales, but I suspect any sales growth will be around a factor of 2 rather than a factor of 10.
Consider instead if Zero price-dropped the 2012 S ZF6 to (say) $8995 and sold it alongside the $10495 2013 XU:
* 76/43/29 mile range vs 76/48/35 mile range (city/combined/highway) .. 10% higher in combined riding
* 5.3 hour 95% charge vs 7.4 hour 95% charge
* 75 mph sustained vs 77 mph (sustained?) top speed
The XU is no doubt the better bike.. especially if it were available with a 1.3 kW charger. But I think the 2012 bike, if it could be sold that cheaply while still making a profit for Zero, would win some convert sales that would not otherwise purchase electric .. and a low-price entry model will bring in more interest, many of which may well upgrade to a more expensive bike.
I do think it's more likely that next year we'll see price-dropped 2013 models, now that Zero is building the motors.
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Regarding motorcycle prices, I have been trying to keep up with the 2013 IC model announcements and just about every one has increased in price. Now it is not that hard to find a $12,000 600 cc bike and larger models, especially large cruisers, Euro bikes and top-end sport bikes are all nearing or have gone over (with options) $20K. EV performance, compared with IC models might still be lagging, at least as far as motorcycle enthusiasts are concerned, but Zero and Brammo prices are not that far off for bikes that have new technology and are built in very small volumes.
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Lucky for us, I heard that the bikes are going to stay the same until 2016.
a good one. Do u mean $ or features ? On both terms your comment sounds like or rumour - or share with us your deeper insights and source pls.
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When I spoke with Richard Walker, Zero's CEO, on a conference call, I asked him about their future plans and got the impression that they would be improving the bikes each year for at least the next three years. I gather that their current model improvement plans are pretty much laid out for that period. No doubt the new motor will stay the same, but I am pretty sure that you will see constant improvements each year. Zero has a lot of development engineers and I am sure that they want to keep them busy.
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I've only heard anecdotal comparisons of the 2012 S and the 2013 S. I was wondering what the 0-60 mph times are for the two models with the largest batteries off the showroom floor?
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I would guess approximately 10s 2012 ZF9 and approximately 6s 2013 ZF11.4.
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Great, now my 2012 ZF6 will be worthless and impossible to sell, thanks Zero. They really need to do a buy back program if they're going to advance their bikes so drastically.
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Ijustride,
We discussed this issue in another thread not too long ago. All a buy back program would do would be to ensure a higher retail price on the purchase of new bikes or divert capital from new bike development as the dealer would be subsidizing the market and the money has to come from somewhere. With emerging technology such as this the buyer needs to recognize the probability of extremely high depreciation upfront and either choose to enjoy the bike they just bought for years to come or suck it up and accept the hit when upgrading... Unfortunately, there is no free lunch!
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Well, there has to be something they could do to lessen the blow.
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In 30 years time you can lawd it over the people that waited until 2013 to buy an electric bike. What more do you want? First out of the gate, ahead of the curve, on the cutting edge. Etc.
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Or you could keep your Zero for 50 years and donate it to an electric motorcycle museum for a tax write-off. ;)
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Since my Zero S does not have a helmet lock, what I do is to place my helmet on the "tank" and fasten it to the center of the handlebar with a short locking cable run through the chin guard of my full-face helmet.
I know of a handlebar helmet holder, or you could install the Kuryakin grips with the integrated helmet lock.
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I do not buy the margin argument......
and as we discussed on another thread, there are ways to support the aftermarket without dramatically impacting margins (dealer or mfg). It does take time and focus but the payback is lower cost of ownership thus improved sales. It also increases turn over at the retail site.
If Zero has all the customers it needs and no bandwidth to look into how to manage the aftermarket then ignore it and leave your customers to fend for themselves. If not, then put some thought into how you can have a play in the secondary market in addition to new bike sales and improve your lot along with those that bought your product. The trade in sales tax credit alone gives you a leg up not to mention the first contact for most people interested in the product usually goes to the mfg/dealer. All dealers will place an intersted party with the Certified Pre-Owned group if they just can not or will not go the full new route.
Zero may simply not have enough resouces to put together and manage a CPO program. They are doing a heck of a job designing and producing bikes and that alone is fantastic. The CPO is just one more opertunity for the company and one I personally hope they take full advantage of.
The decision will tell you something about Zero (or any company for that matter). Watch what people do, not what they say:)
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I believe that BMW has a CPO program for their autos, but I don't believe that they or any other motorcycle company, has a similar program for their motorcycles. And those companies have an established dealer network, make tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of units each year and are mufti-billion dollar corporations. If they can't, or won't, do something similar, I don't see how Zero can, considering that they are just trying to make enough motorcycles to stay in business long enough for EV's to catch on. And the way gasoline and oil prices are dropping, and more new IC models are being announced every day, that is getting more difficult all the time.
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I do not buy the margin argument......
and as we discussed on another thread, there are ways to support the aftermarket without dramatically impacting margins (dealer or mfg). It does take time and focus but the payback is lower cost of ownership thus improved sales. It also increases turn over at the retail site.
If Zero has all the customers it needs and no bandwidth to look into how to manage the aftermarket then ignore it and leave your customers to fend for themselves. If not, then put some thought into how you can have a play in the secondary market in addition to new bike sales and improve your lot along with those that bought your product. The trade in sales tax credit alone gives you a leg up not to mention the first contact for most people interested in the product usually goes to the mfg/dealer. All dealers will place an intersted party with the Certified Pre-Owned group if they just can not or will not go the full new route.
Zero may simply not have enough resouces to put together and manage a CPO program. They are doing a heck of a job designing and producing bikes and that alone is fantastic. The CPO is just one more opertunity for the company and one I personally hope they take full advantage of.
The decision will tell you something about Zero (or any company for that matter). Watch what people do, not what they say:)
I "traded" a 2011S for a 2012S through a dealer. After much back and forth it became obvious that even though the dealer had a buyer for my 2011S the price was far below the list price I'd paid 1 year earlier. The difference was several times the profit that Zero makes on a bike, never mind a small profit for the dealer. So there are two factors that limit Zero's ability to help with upgrades: 1) rapid improvement means rapid depreciation and 2) low margins means Zero can't do much for customers to often the depreciation hit they take in upgrades.
Zero's options are: 1) stop making the bikes better so fast (silly) or 2) keep working to lower cost-of-goods (correct).
By making their own motors and other specialized expensive components Zero should be able to drive down costs and improve margins. That will give them more flexibility over time to help with upgrades via dealers.
In the mean time it's our decision: Buy a uniquely great product and enjoy it for a year or wait for the next even better product next year and miss out on a year's enjoyment. I plan to skip a year and buy a 2014 rather than take the bid depreciation hit two years in a row; my 2012S is still a better bike than anything else out there.
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That is my plan too. I would like to give my 2012 bike to my oldest granddaughter when she becomes 16. It would make the perfect vehicle for her to learn how to deal with traffic, in my opinion. Not having to deal with a clutch and shifting should allow her to focus more on what is going on around her. Then that would give me a space in my garage for a 2014 model. :) Both her parents ride motorcycles but who knows if she would want to do so too, or if her parents feel the same about letting their daughter ride like they do. Time will tell, I guess.
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I'll hold onto my 2012 for now, but in a couple of years I'll be taking a hard look at a new bike vs a used bike. New 2014 vs used 2013? New 2015 vs used 2014?
There are a handful of things that hurt the secondary electrics market:
1. Limited numbers of local buyers, and no centralized place to sell online.
2. Rapid improvements year-over-year. "What, your old bike doesn't have smartphone connectivity? How 2012!"
3. Lack of confidence in electric powertrain reliability.
4. Buyer interest in supporting the manufacturer by buying new and spurring further developments.
5. State or federal incentives which can dramatically cut the "real" price paid when new.
Zero has some options to address some of these .. perhaps primarily through their dealer market, which is still significantly in flux.
A certified pre-owned program would help #1 and #3, possibly #4 too. Combine this with a central dealer used inventory listing. Someone walking into the store may be drawn in by the $7995 XU 2.8, but turned off when they find they have to step up to the $10495 XU to get the range they want. "But what about this $5995 like-new 2011 S? I can have it here Thursday."
Providing an (optional?) long powertrain warranty should cost Zero very little. They talk of hundreds of thousands of miles of lifetime on the battery but only offer a 2 year extended warranty. A long warranty would help #3 significantly - and the BMS collects enough information to be able to offer a reasonable estimate on how gently the battery has been treated.
Loyalty rebates would help #2, but hurt #5.
I'm increasingly of the opinion that "alternative powertrain" incentive money would be far better spent at the state and federal level building up a charging infrastructure rather than offering fleeting purchase rebates. Unfortunately, there's still a lot of bitter fighting ahead of us with respect to charging standards, and this hurts any rollout plans. J1772 level 2 is pretty entrenched (new rollouts should supply AT LEAST 30A), but wireless charging may become more prominent in several years. CHAdeMO and J1772 level 3 DC charging have a tough fight ahead of them.. and in the short term at least, EV owners will suffer.
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Or you could keep your Zero for 50 years and donate it to an electric motorcycle museum for a tax write-off. ;)
It is so funny you say that because I had a similar thought the other day as I was riding down the street. I thought to myself, someday everyone will be driving/riding some alternative fueled vehicle and this bike 2011 S will be a collector's dream! So, option three is wait 30 years and the depreciation curve will invert and you will earn a return on your investment :)
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I stopped by Hollywood Electrics (HE) today and discovered a third alternative for 2012 owners who aren't ready to take a multi thousand dollars depreciation hit to upgrade to a 2013: the HE upgrade to the stock controller and other improvements. Tried amodified 2012 S and holy cow! Mega acceleration in Sport mode plus hard regen for ICE engine-like braking. Also added rear pegs and did something to the suspension to make it both less jarring and more controllable. You ride lower with a lower center of gravity. Handling is improved.
All in all an HE upgrade is cheaper than selling a 2012 and buying a 2013. Maybe the perfect strategy for 2012 owners is HE upgrade to get 2013 performance then upgrade to 2014 year after next. Only problem with that is if they can get 2013 performance out of a 2012, imagine what they can do to a 2013. :o
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I think that the thing that will get people to buy a new EV is a test ride. Most people, especially new riders, will really appreciate the quiet, easy operation and wide spread of pulling power. :)
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@ZeroSinMA: What was the cost for the upgrade?
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@ZeroSinMA: What was the cost for the upgrade?
Reasonable. :)
Call them.
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Trikester, how does the 13 S compare with Hollywood Electric's modified 12 ZF9? I know it has almost double the power but does it feel like it really does?
Jose Soriano
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On paper the upgrade ZF9 makes significantly more torque and it weighs less than the 13 so should be nippier at lower speeds. I imagine Zero have stuck with their usual old grandma friendly mapping below 40 on the new bike too whereas hopefully HE have given it some teeth.
You only have to ride an X to realise how quick the 12 should be to 60
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Trikester, how does the 13 S compare with Hollywood Electric's modified 12 ZF9? I know it has almost double the power but does it feel like it really does?
I can't say because I haven't ridden the HE modified 2012. What I can say is that the 2013 S ZF 11.4 is damn fast off the line and has surprising acceleration. I think any gas bike rider would enjoy riding this bike. When I returned from my short ride my first words were; "wow, what a bitchin bike!"
The motorcycle mechanic, who's shop is across from mine, works on hundreds of gas bikes each month and was a top racer for years, he also rode the 2013 S right after I did and he wants one!
Trikester
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As there is a lot of excitement about acceleration. Here are the Zero 2013 numbers...
S: 5.3 seg
XU: 5.5 seg
FX: 3.9 seg
MX: 4.3 seg
I have ridden the FX, & S models and I can tell you they are real. You basically gain + 100% vs 2012 models. The FX as I pointed out in a different thread is a rocket...
And yes, I would like to know more about the 2012 controller modification/upgrade for improving acceleration. Does anyone know if this could be done just sending the controller?
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And yes, I would like to know more about the 2012 controller modification/upgrade for improving acceleration. Does anyone know if this could be done just sending the controller?
Thanks everybody for all the interest in our controller upgrade. We're still finalizing everything and I don't like to release info prematurely but the bikes out in the field with our upgrade have been working flawlessly. In the interest of not hijacking this thread (anymore than I've already done) I'll start a new thread this week with more info and pictures. I think you will all be impressed when you see the pics and the data.
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3.9s for the FX is blisteringly fast. I would be surprised if the Empulse was faster than that - weight matters, and the Empulse is carrying an extra 200 pounds vs the FX.
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And yes, I would like to know more about the 2012 controller modification/upgrade for improving acceleration. Does anyone know if this could be done just sending the controller?
Thanks everybody for all the interest in our controller upgrade. We're still finalizing everything and I don't like to release info prematurely but the bikes out in the field with our upgrade have been working flawlessly. In the interest of not hijacking this thread (anymore than I've already done) I'll start a new thread this week with more info and pictures. I think you will all be impressed when you see the pics and the data.
My fault for hijacking the thread. Please do give us a dedicated thread on the HE upgrade.
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As there is a lot of excitement about acceleration. Here are the Zero 2013 numbers...
S: 5.3 seg
XU: 5.5 seg
FX: 3.9 seg
MX: 4.3 seg
I have ridden the FX, & S models and I can tell you they are real. You basically gain + 100% vs 2012 models. The FX as I pointed out in a different thread is a rocket...
And yes, I would like to know more about the 2012 controller modification/upgrade for improving acceleration. Does anyone know if this could be done just sending the controller?
Just to be sure, we are talking 0-60 miles per hour here?
The DS should be slightly faster than the S?
If that FX would allow a passenger it would really rise on my wishlist!
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As there is a lot of excitement about acceleration. Here are the Zero 2013 numbers...
S: 5.3 seg
XU: 5.5 seg
FX: 3.9 seg
MX: 4.3 seg
I have ridden the FX, & S models and I can tell you they are real. You basically gain + 100% vs 2012 models. The FX as I pointed out in a different thread is a rocket...
And yes, I would like to know more about the 2012 controller modification/upgrade for improving acceleration. Does anyone know if this could be done just sending the controller?
Hi Lipo,
Where did these figures come from?
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The last time I looked there were only about a dozen chademo chargers in the US, but then I saw this quote in the motorcycle-usa.com article (http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/845/14458/Motorcycle-Article/2013-Zero-Motorcycles-Double-HP--Fast-Charge.aspx):
The higher voltage Z-Force power pack can be used in conjunction with an optional accessory that is said to help Zero Motorcycles recharge to 95% in an hour or less at a CHAdeMO charging station. The fast-charging electrical stations are sprouting up all over the country, with 1600 stations already in operation while 2000 stations are projected to be up and running by 2014.
I think they confused the 1693 worldwide number with a domestic number?
Just for grins, though, I did check their location map again and lo and behold they are starting to sprout up like dandelions with 3 listed in the greater SF Bay Area (if you count halfway to Sacramento as "greater SF Bay Area"). Houston and Chicago are really gearing up for chademo, a bunch in Dallas and Phoenix and a big loop of them around Tennessee...
http://goo.gl/maps/iL7F2 (http://goo.gl/maps/iL7F2)
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Just for grins, here is one comment from one of Musk's latest conference calls=
Roadster update: Tesla shipped 68 Roadsters in the third quarter and expects to do “a decent business†selling used Roadsters now that the car has been out for a few years, Musk said. Tesla has a staff dedicated to managing the used Roaster business.
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So Tesla is managing used electric "Roasters" now? ;D I can tell that it is getting close to turkey day. ;) It is tough to keep your mind on EV's when a turkey is roasting in the oven. :)
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CPO electric cars should be pretty lucrative.
Refurbish the interior, do a comprehensive battery health check, replace any weak cells or replace the entire battery if necessary, sell as like-new. Offer a warranty sufficient to cover quibbles.
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Even cheaper on a Zero. Take a one year old Zero and bring the warranty back to full force (basically, one more year on the battery) and let the dealer make money moving it. The CPO upcharge will be more than offset by the sales tax credit the original buyer will see. The dealer has access to customers so the bikes move faster at a higher price point.
Zero, this is a profit center that lowers cost of ownership. Dealers, more units moved.
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The data comes from Zero...Where did I get them? that's a different business ;)
The good news with the FX is that you save on tires...can actually use only the rear one ;D you have to be careful with the throttle...which is great...I want one...I will get one ::)
Have not seen the Brammo numbers, but the FX is difficult to beat
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I've already picked out the Kenda model K270 (dual-sport dirt) tires I'll put on my FX (FXU actually) that is already on order. 8) 5.1" x 18 rear and 3.25" x 21 front. For where I do most of my riding I like big tires. The K270 series work well in the dirt and sand without costing me too much highway mileage. They last "forever" and are relatively cheap.
Trikester
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Are you getting the FX motor on the XU?
As far as I remember it comes as std. with a 250A controller and a smaller motor
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Have not seen the Brammo numbers
I've heard between 4-5s 0-60 for the Empulse. Shorter gearing helps (1st gear is good for 60 mph), but weight hurts.
Both the XU and FX come with the 75-5 motor, which has slightly more peak torque but falls off more quickly than the larger 75-7 motor in the MX / S / DS.
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I just received the December issue of Motorcycle Consumer News. They test the new 2013 Kawasaki Ninja 300 ABS and say it is a big improvement over the 250 Ninja. It makes a maximum of 34.77 hp @ 11k rpm and 17.46 lb-ft of torque @ 9,750 rpm. Redline is 12,500 rpm. Weight is up to 385 pounds and 0-60 times are down to 6.41 seconds. The quarter mile goes by in 14.67 seconds at 87.7 mph. Top speed is 106 mph. Average mpg is 54.1 on regular fuel and its price has gone up to $5499, with ABS and the $200 more SE graphics. It will be interesting to see how the performance of the 2013 Brammo and Zero models compare with this new bike.
I hope they perform a comparison test between the Empulse and the Zero S next year.
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Are you getting the FX motor on the XU?
As far as I remember it comes as std. with a 250A controller and a smaller motor
I'll say it again!
I'm getting an FX and swaping the three FX suspension parts for the three XU suspension parts. I can't quite understand why some have thought I would start with the XU and up convert so many of its parts (controller, wheel & tires, etc.) to the FX parts. That would not be very smart on my part, would it? Once again, it will be the FX sitting on the XU suspension. Only three parts swapped (if you don't count my conversion of the FX to chain drive).
Trikester