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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: ColoPaul on April 30, 2012, 12:30:06 AM

Title: Soak up the sun
Post by: ColoPaul on April 30, 2012, 12:30:06 AM
Drove home my 2012 ZF6 #47 3 days ago.  The bike is a hoot!  All my buddies want one now.
So the manual cautions against hot temps: "Do not ... leave the power pack in direct sunlight."
Can I park it outside in the sun while I'm at work?
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: CliC on April 30, 2012, 05:26:41 AM
I've left my DS/9 out in the sun for several hours with no apparent ill effects. But it's not quite summer here yet, only 80-85 degF out. We'll see in July when it's in the high 90s. [I'm also curious to hear from some more northern dwellers how it works when it's 20 degF out, though no one may be crazy enough to ride in that weather.]

I presume there's a thermal cutout on the batteries, but I suspect thet the motor's thermal limiter would kick in first.

I usually cover it, though, so it doesn't get spray-painted, misted by cooling towers, etc., as I work at an industrial facility.

This kinda leads into what would be one of my wish-list items for the Zero: a full digital dash that could tap into the bike's CAN or whatever bus it uses and display info like this. I understand their OEMing a generic unit like they did, to reduce cost and development time, but having temperature info, instantaneous kW and cumulative kWh readings, kWh when charging (no more Kill-a-Watt needed), etc. would be uber-cool. Besides, I never look at the speedo needle, just the digital numbers. Seems like such a waste of space :)
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: Doctorbass on April 30, 2012, 06:07:07 AM
I've left my DS/9 out in the sun for several hours with no apparent ill effects. But it's not quite summer here yet, only 80-85 degF out. We'll see in July when it's in the high 90s. [I'm also curious to hear from some more northern dwellers how it works when it's 20 degF out, though no one may be crazy enough to ride in that weather.]

I presume there's a thermal cutout on the batteries, but I suspect thet the motor's thermal limiter would kick in first.

I usually cover it, though, so it doesn't get spray-painted, misted by cooling towers, etc., as I work at an industrial facility.

This kinda leads into what would be one of my wish-list items for the Zero: a full digital dash that could tap into the bike's CAN or whatever bus it uses and display info like this. I understand their OEMing a generic unit like they did, to reduce cost and development time, but having temperature info, instantaneous kW and cumulative kWh readings, kWh when charging (no more Kill-a-Watt needed), etc. would be uber-cool. Besides, I never look at the speedo needle, just the digital numbers. Seems like such a waste of space :)

The real best tool every zero owners need ia a cycle analyst!!! i still dont understand why people dont install them on their moto!!

This is exactly the tool everyone need to get all these data!!

it already exist and is really popular from years now!!  at 150$... it IS the solution !

Now you also can also record and datalog every of these data and also can have the GPS option that record each trip with data combined to the GPS position.. all this is recorded in a small micro SD card!

http://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml (http://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml)
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: CliC on April 30, 2012, 09:11:14 AM
The real best tool every zero owners need ia a cycle analyst!!! i still dont understand why people dont install them on their moto!!
http://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml (http://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml)

That looks cool, but it seems to be geared more to DIY applications. If you want to get data directly off the controller, it appears that the controller must speak the special protocol this device requires; otherwise, there's some more hardware hacking involved (and shunt resistors? Where are the Hall-effect sensors for DC current measurement?). The smallish two-line display probably relegates it to auxiliary use as well, i.e., I wouldn't want to be trying to read my speed from that while riding. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, just that it's not going to replace the dash unit that the Zero comes with.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: electricdominic on May 01, 2012, 01:46:07 AM
So the manual cautions against hot temps: "Do not ... leave the power pack in direct sunlight."

Well, if this is true, it puts a huge damper on people from owning one in places like the desert southwest and florida.  I live in   Phoenix and wanted to buy one as my commuter.   But if this is true, I cannot own one.  What a HUGE design flaw this is!!!
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: oobflyer on May 01, 2012, 07:11:40 AM
According to the Owner's Manual:

Quote
The lithium ion cells should not get above 71°C (160°F). Do not store in a hot car or trailer, or leave the power pack in direct sunlight.

It gets very hot where I live (San Joaquin Valley), but I can usually find some shade at work (and I also cover it) and I park it in the garage at home. I can't imagine the pack exceeding 160 degrees Fahrenheit.

My Vectrix battery pack got up to 50 degrees Celsius (122 F) in the summer, but only when charging on a hot day - and THAT was with NiMH batteries. The new LiFePo batteries in my Vectrix only get up to about half of that - I think the Li-ion chemistry is much more stable.

I don't plan on losing any sleep over it  ;)
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: Richard230 on May 01, 2012, 08:27:10 PM
I wonder if covering the sides of the black battery box with aluminum foil would help keep it cooler when parked in the sun?
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: electricdominic on May 01, 2012, 10:22:52 PM

I don't plan on losing any sleep over it  ;)

Just wait until you lose your warranty because you parked it in the sun, then you'll be loosing sleep :O :O
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: protomech on May 02, 2012, 12:04:56 AM
Parking it in the sun isn't the issue, parking it in the sun in high ambient temperatures causing the cell temperatures to surpass 160 degrees Fahrenheit is the issue.

For most of the US that shouldn't be a huge problem - without actually testing, I would guess the temperature rise inside the battery box would be < 30 degrees Fahrenheit. But testing is really the only way to determine.
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: electricdominic on May 02, 2012, 12:24:48 AM
Our asphalt gets to 170F in the summer!!!  All that heat radiates up (of course) and if a bike is parked on it while I'm in at work, wouldn't you think that the 170F cooking surface (um, er, pavement) would raise the temperature of the bike to around 160F. and doing that daily 5 days a week, 10 hours a day, would do some real damage?   

Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: blake on May 02, 2012, 12:58:25 AM
I for one hope this is not an issue. Because even here in "frigid" Canada (ok, less so now with climate change) it can be 100F in the shade and I have no choice but to park on the street in the sun in the summer at work or at the commuter rail station. I find it hard to believe someone would design a bike that could not spend time outside like every other motorcycle does. Cripes!  Until now I was more concerned about frying my ass on that black seat after it sits in the hot sun all day. :-|
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: ColoPaul on May 02, 2012, 05:40:18 AM
I'm less worried.  I did some searching, and found several websites where people were measuring inside temperatures of cars parked in the sun.  That should be worse than the bike case because of the 'greenhouse effect'.  The batteries on the S are not in an airtight enclosure, there's no glass, and the enclosure is partially shaded by the seat/"tank".
So from the car data, even with windows closed and ambient of 90F+, inside temps were always less than 160F, typically less than 140F.

http://ggweather.com/heat/ (http://ggweather.com/heat/)
http://www.injuryprevention.org/states/la/hotcars/hotcars.htm (http://www.injuryprevention.org/states/la/hotcars/hotcars.htm)
http://www.mydogiscool.com/x_car_study.php (http://www.mydogiscool.com/x_car_study.php)
http://www.city-data.com/forum/phoenix-area/106718-safety-arizona-sun-your-car.html (http://www.city-data.com/forum/phoenix-area/106718-safety-arizona-sun-your-car.html)

The last example is from Phoenix.  Which states that on a 109F-in-the-shade day, a SUV in the sun, the seat temperature (the seat was 'shaded' by the car body, i.e. sun wasn't shining through the window on the seat) was only 135F.

Title: Re: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: electricdominic on May 02, 2012, 06:21:20 AM
Asphalt in phoenix reaches over 170°f in the summer...heat rises....bike is parked on asphalt for 10 hours....I don't have a bike, but I presume the batteries are low down on the bike for better cg...so theyre going to be inches from a 170° surface...logic tells me that those batteries are going to get heated from both the direct sun as well as the heart rising off the asphalt....
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: protomech on May 02, 2012, 07:00:32 AM
The bottom of the battery box is 12" from the ground, when the bike is parked on its kick stand.

The internal box temperature should be substantially less than the asphalt temperature. Try putting your hand 12" above the asphalt - usually 150 degrees F is enough to burn you.
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: blake on May 02, 2012, 09:10:45 PM
thanks ColoPaul for that additional 'homework' you did for us all - I feel more reassured.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: electricdominic on May 02, 2012, 10:31:55 PM
Try putting your hand 12" above the asphalt - usually 150 degrees F is enough to burn you.

So sorry, but I am not going to waste ten hours of my life getting a sunburn and scorching my hand by placing it 12" off the ground for ten hours straight to attempt to prove your point.  Why don't you drop by in a month and we can video your attempt to hold your hand there for ten hours
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: protomech on May 02, 2012, 10:37:46 PM
No need to get snippy 8) Even though the ground may be 170 degrees (ouch!), air acts as an insulator and you won't see those temperatures at the battery box (or, say, at your hand 12" off the ground).

I think the cycle analyst + analogger combination can be rigged to accept analog inputs. Might be interesting to hook up a thermistor to the inside of the battery box.. that or getting access to Zero's logs - if they're even recorded when the bike is "off" - are really the only ways to know how hot the battery box interior is.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: electricdominic on May 10, 2012, 08:42:53 AM
No need to get snippy 8)
nope not snippy, just a realist.
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: protomech on May 18, 2012, 06:27:01 AM
Sorry to drag up an old-ish topic, but here's an update.

I brought an IR temperature sensor to work today. Left work at 6 pm, temperature outside was 84 degrees (F) per weather.com.

The concrete pad (in direct sunlight) that I was parked on read 110-114 degrees (+30 over ambient).
The battery enclosure facing the sun read 106-110 degrees (+26 over ambient)
The battery enclosure shaded from the sun (bike was parked with its side to the sun) read 100-102 degrees (+18 over ambient)
The tires read 120-124 (!) degrees (+40 over ambient)
The motor housing read 101 degrees (+17 over ambient)

After 20 minutes of 35-55 mph riding, the pack read 88 degrees, the motor read 90 degrees.

After 20 minutes more of 45-55 mph riding, the pack read 81 degrees, the motor read 81 degrees. (also the outside temp had dropped to 81)

Peak enclosure temp in the sun was 26 degrees above ambient. I'm assuming the exterior skin of the enclosure is higher than the internal battery temperature - with a maximum battery temperature of 160 degrees, I'm not going to worry about battery temperatures until I see peak ambient temperatures above 120-125.

I'll repeat the readings when we get 100 degree days, which is about as hot as Huntsville gets.
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: protomech on May 23, 2012, 04:10:28 AM
Okay, more data. Data is an anathema to fear and hand-wringing.

Tested temperatures at 3:30 PM today. It was overcast in the morning, but the clouds lifted in the early afternoon. It's sunny now but not terribly warm. Weather.com says 79F / 26C.

My bike was parked on asphalt. The sun at the time of measuring was somewhat above and nearly behind the bike, so sunlight was hitting one side of the battery enclosure at a very oblique angle and the other side of the enclosure was in shade.

Asphalt was 103F.
The seat was 110-115F. Yes, it felt warm : )
The battery pack enclosure in shade was 88F (+9F over ambient).
The battery pack in sunlight was 96F (+17F over ambient).
Tires in the sunlight were 126-130F.
The swingarm in the sunlight was 100F.

Here's the bike's temperature sensor readings:
Pack0 29C
Pack1 27C
Pack2 28C
Pack3 28C
Pack4 29C
Pack5 28C

BMS0 29C
BMS1 30C
BMS2 29C

Interconnect0 27C
Interconnect1 28C
Interconnect2 29C
Interconnect3 28C
Interconnect4 28C
Interconnect5 29C

So, internal temperatures range from 27-30C, or 81-86F (+2 to +7F over ambient).

Supposing the temperature sensors are calibrated properly, the internal battery temperature is slightly above ambient and slightly below the coolest region of the enclosure.
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: protomech on June 30, 2012, 03:51:50 AM
And one more update.

We've been seeing temperatures over 100F here recently. In fact, the last few and next few days are within a couple of degrees of all-time highs for this area.

Parked the bike in an area that receives direct sunlight throughout the day, with the tail generally facing the west.

June 28:
Readings taken around 7 pm, ambient temperature 101F.
Asphalt temp was 124-128F.
Battery casing exterior was 116-118F (15-17F above ambient).

June 29:
Readings taken around 4 pm, ambient temperature 105F.
Asphalt temp was 136-148F.
Battery casing exterior was 126-130F (21-25F above ambient).

The casing exterior temperature did not increase closer to the asphalt.

Given an interior temperature 2-10F below exterior casing - at lower temperatures - and a 160F maximum temperature for the cells, I see no reason to be concerned about ambient temperatures below 120F.
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: Lipo423 on June 30, 2012, 12:37:12 PM
This is very good information Protomech. Thanks.
We have reached 108 F in Spain in the last few days, so obviously, I would not love to "fry" my battery pack  ;D

If the batteries we have in our packs (2012 models) are the Molicel ones the operating temperature goes from -20C to +60C (they acknowledge the fact that their bateries work better at +45C -which is good news for the subject of our concern)...especially for this summer...when the winter shows up, that will be another discussion, as I'm a bit skeptical about their hability to hold up nominal capacity at low teperatures...

Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: protomech on June 30, 2012, 07:23:41 PM
I don't think we have hard confirmation, but the 2012 bikes use EIG C020 pouch cells. The pre-2012 bikes all used molicel cylindrical cells.

EIG rates the C020 cells at -30C to 55C (131F) storage and operation.

In the 2012 manual Zero claims the power pack should be used only in the range of -7C (20F) to 71C (160F), and the BMS will disable operation outside this range.

Why the temperature discrepancies?

It's possible on the lower end that other electronics on the bike are suitable only to 20F. It's also possible the batteries give truly abysmal performance below 20F, but I'd still like the option to use the bike in that case..

On the high end, the 55C rating appears to be a 1 month storage temperature (PDF link (http://planning.coventry.gov.uk/portal/servlets/AttachmentShowServlet?ImageName=894135)). Zero may have performed durability testing of the batteries above that temperature, or they may be suitable for limited duration storage above that temperature. It may be worth following up with Zero directly to see why the discrepancies exist.

131F internal temperature is still probably good for about 110F ambient. If Zero's specs are incorrect, then you would want to keep the bike shaded above that temperature.
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: Lipo423 on June 30, 2012, 08:46:33 PM
Oh, thanks Protomech, I recall reading this comment in a different thread -I'm getting older  :(
I would agree with the components assumption (when I was studying electronics we always talked about "military-grade" components -or "rough terrain" as we called them)...I would really question Zero going that far for the electronic control system. The other reason -Assuming they use military-grade electronic components- is to preserve battery life at low temperatures...I have seen very few cells being able to hold up a reasonable charge level below 0 celsius, who knows...

They could have made an agreement with the manufacturer to get special cells with "tuned" chemistry -this can be done for certain applications (military, and NASA get in the game)  ;)

I would also agree that we should be able to ride the bikes with 100% range at those temperatures, but unfortunately I do not see it practically today.

Below, you may see a general graph/chart for Lithium batteries operating temperature


(http://)
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: dkw12002 on June 30, 2012, 10:37:11 PM
I try to avoid the summer sun here, but I have been out in 100 degree sunny weather. I figure the inside of my garage gets even a little hotter, but so far my 2011 Zero S runs fine and charges fine. I don't ride any other bikes in the hot sunny part of the day in summer either cause it's even harder on me. I'm stuck with riding from 6-11am and 7-9 pm for the next 2 months at least. We've already had a couple of 104 degree days.
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: protomech on April 25, 2013, 11:33:09 AM
Zero has posted some guidance on hot weather operation. Somewhat apropos as we'll be entering the hot weather season shortly.

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/owner-resources/Guidelines-for-Hot-and-Cold%20Weather-Operation-SV-ZMC-012-050.pdf (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/owner-resources/Guidelines-for-Hot-and-Cold%20Weather-Operation-SV-ZMC-012-050.pdf)

Quote
Hot weather operation of the motorcycle should not result in any noticeable performance changes. However, the BMS will not allow motorcycle operation and its associated battery discharge above 140F/60C, as measured at the battery.

Note that in hot temperatures (greater than 87F/31C for 2011-2012 Model Year) (greater than 110F/43C for 2013 Model Year), the charger reduces its charge current to the battery, increasing charge time accordingly; the hotter the ambient temperature, the greater the effect. Above a battery temperature of 131F/55C, the BMS will no longer allow charging.

Storing the motorcycle or its battery in direct sunlight in ambient temperatures above 105F/41C may result in accelerated permanent decay of battery performance, and hence it is not recommended.

Those of you in hot climes should heed the above advice.
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: dahlheim on April 25, 2013, 07:25:15 PM
i have been leaving the bike unplugged for an hour or two after parking before charging because the manual entry about not charging while the battery is hot has had me a bit paranoid.  what i would really love is the ability to know the below temperatures.  how did you obtain those sensor readings, please?

Okay, more data. Data is an anathema to fear and hand-wringing.


Here's the bike's temperature sensor readings:
Pack0 29C
Pack1 27C
Pack2 28C
Pack3 28C
Pack4 29C
Pack5 28C

BMS0 29C
BMS1 30C
BMS2 29C

Interconnect0 27C
Interconnect1 28C
Interconnect2 29C
Interconnect3 28C
Interconnect4 28C
Interconnect5 29C

So, internal temperatures range from 27-30C, or 81-86F (+2 to +7F over ambient).

Supposing the temperature sensors are calibrated properly, the internal battery temperature is slightly above ambient and slightly below the coolest region of the enclosure.
Title: Re: Soak up the sun
Post by: protomech on April 25, 2013, 07:28:27 PM
The temperature sensors are logged by the BMS board. If you have a special Zero cable (which I had for a brief time) then you can access the BMS and retrieve its current readings.