ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: RickSteeb on February 18, 2012, 07:51:09 AM
-
Was about half way to work this morning, going 75 or so in the diamond lane, when the motor abruptly quit. Coasted to the shoulder, re-booted, and no further issues have come up.
Any idea what that was about? Sustained full-throttle running hasn't been an issue before; it was about 47 degrees ambient at the time, so overheating seems unlikely... ?
-
Motor or controller temp protection? ?
any error code ?
Doc
-
Bad fuel pump. LOL. This happens to my e-bikes from increased voltage if I try to climb a steep hill that is too much for the motor. Reboot and it starts right up again. Of course that shouldn't be the case with the big Zero motor. Sorry to hear of the glitch though. I ride mine like crazy accelerating up hills wot and haven't had it shut down yet. The fan does come on when I do that though. (2011 model). I would e-mail Zero on that one cause it could be a safety issue.
To digress, I owned a new 1978 Corvette that would die on the Autobahn going 90 mph. I'd pull over and after a few seconds it would start again. I contacted Chevy several times and finally, they fessed up. They had put a plastic liner inside the gas tank to prevent rear end collisions from causing fires, and it was not fully cured so was contaminating the gas. After about 4 fill-ups it went away. Different problem, but still dangerous.
-
Any chance you were in ECO mode? Another member reported a similar problem:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=1924.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=1924.0)
I have been told by ZERO they have new software that will fix my shutting down in ECO mode problem. They are going to make the software change for me when they can get my bike.
I had to laugh ::) when I was told this problem was unique to my bike, no one else has had this problem, and then a minute later told that they have new software to correct it. Huh? ???
-
I'm the one who had the problem in ECO mode and ZERO determined that I had a faulty circuit board on my 2012 DS which they have now replaced. I haven't been able to test it much yet since the repair, because I'm now in the process of changing the rear wheel to a 17", like I did on my 2010 DS (actually swapping my modified swing arm from the 2010 to the 2012). After I get done with the mod I'll ride it in ECO mode for a while to check it out.
MY 2010 DS has also mysteriously shut off like that, but only about three or four times in the 1 1/2 years I have owned it. This happened under mild riding conditions with fully charged battery and light load. Harlan, @ Hollywood Electrics, said that there were some contactor problems with the early bikes but that part has been changed with the newer bikes. So that could be the source of the occasional problem on my 2010. It was one of the very first ones shipped from the factory.
Trikester
-
Something similar happened to me under similar circumstances. I was also riding at full throttle, on the freeway, in ECO mode. I was traveling at about 75 MPH into a headwind, when suddenly I lost all power. I released the throttle, and started to pull over to the shoulder of the freeway when the power suddenly returned. It was only gone for a few seconds and I only slowed to about 55 MPH, at which point I was able to accelerate back up to the speed limit (70MPH).
I'm assuming that it was nothing serious, as there were no warning lights on the dash. It hasn't happened since.
-
I had a stalling problem last week, too. I was riding my 2012 Zero S in Eco mode and got stuck at a long traffic light. I was there for at least 3 minutes with the throttle off and not moving. When the light finally turned green and traffic started to move, I turned the throttle and nothing happened. There were no warning indicators and the instrument panel looked normal. The throttle just didn't move the bike. So I turned off the ignition and turned it back on again (as traffic squeezed past me) and was immediately able to ride off after the computer rebooted. Since that time I have had no stalling issues and certainly none while moving.
My guess is that there is a safety feature in the computer programing that cuts power to the motor when the bike sits with the power on and does not move for a certain number of minutes. I can see how leaving the bike on, walking away, and then someone playing with the throttle might be an issue that turning the power off to the motor would prevent.
-
Richard230: if that were the case, I would have expected to see something in the owner's manual or some type of indicator on the dash. Disabling power, esp without any indication that it's taken place, sounds like a safety detriment rather than a benefit. Beyond your issue of needing to move at a stoplight, what if someone was coming up behind you at the light and failed to see you..
Hopefully Zero will get you all squared away ASAP.
-
Computers... So often a reboot clears up an issue that is never explained! I never saw any fault code or indicator light up, but then my interest was in coasting across four lanes of traffic to get to the shoulder unscathed! In four weeks and almost 800 miles, that's the only weird behavior it's had thus far. Will watch for a software patch/update/?
-
Ok, it's beginning to look like the mysterious momentary loss of power is an increasing experience. I didn't have any fault warning indicators either. On the 2012 it only happened in ECO mode but on the 2010 there is no mode choice. It seems to be random and rare in my 2010 DS case, and not tied to any particular riding situation. In the 2012 it seemed to be a frequent occurrence but only in the ECO mode and ZERO found a faulty circuit to replace. I am assuming now that my 2012 DS is fine after the repair, but I still have no definite diagnosis for the 2010 DS, except to suspect the contactor (high current relay) used in the early bikes (my 2010 was in the first batch shipped).
I am very pleased with the way Hollywood Electrics and ZERO took care of the problem on my 2012. They "bent over backwards" to service my bike and quickly get to the root of the problem, in finding the faulty circuit. Their diagnostics machine pointed directly to the fault which could have been in the circuit's electrical connector or a faulty component on the PC board. 8)
-
It happened to me again today. I rode down a mile long expressway with the throttle off and came to a stop at a traffic signal at the bottom of the street. I was in Sport mode at the time. I had to wait for about a minute for the cross traffic to clear (I had the right turn signal on as I was making a right turn at the intersection) and the bike failed to start up again when the throttle was turned. I turned the key off and back on and was able to immediately take off, after the computer rebooted. I rode around for about another 30 miles today, stopping at longer lights and never had another problem.
Right now I am not seeing much of a pattern, other than coming to a stop and waiting for for a short time. I really hate random and intermittent problems. At least it isn't happening while the bike is in motion. I am staying out of the center of the lane for now, just in case someone wants to pass me if I stall out again. I am going to keep riding the bike for a while longer and see if it gets any worse before contacting my dealer. Fortunately, I don't ride during commute hours.
I had exactly the same problem with my GPR-S. It would stall occasionally when coming to a stop. But with that bike I had to wait exactly 3 minutes before I could reboot the controller. I finally got a controller programmer and discovered that it was seeing a "contactor fault". Which, unfortunately, I was never able to resolve.
-
Hey Richard. I think the phenomenon that you are experiencing is different from that of trikester.
The way the sevcon is setup, you may occasionally experience a lag time in torque, that feels like a dead throttle, when you come to a complete stop. From my personal experience, it resolves itself after a second, or as soon as the bike either rolls forward or backward and the torque "catches". If you want to make sure you feel the torque after coming to a complete stop, you could roll the throttle on a bit with the front brake on until you feel the forks start to compress and know that you will get a good launch.
-
Hi Harlan,
After my second stalling incident, I started to test the throttle at long stop lights. I would feel the bike pull a little and then I would know that it was ready to take off and it would. If it happens again on the way to my dentist tomorrow, I'll spend a little more time to verify that there wasn't just a temporary lag and I wasn't just jumping the gun by rebooting. Now that I know this might happen, I'll be ready for it if it does.
In any case, I just received a call from Zero, who told me that they wanted to go over my bike and reprogram the controller. They are going to stop by my home later this week, pick up my bike and return it to the factory, drop off a loaner for me to use while mine is being checked over and fixed at the factory. They will ride it around for a day to make sure everything is up to spec and return it to my home. All I have to do is to open up my garage door a couple of times. Now that is what I call great service! ;D
-
Nice : )
-
lucky u live in the right area. nevertheless they gave me good, somewhat longish service here, far away in Oz. :) Guess with great service they now can make the difference and keep leading this. Even established players like BMW or KTM likely will struggle as all their training and service is geared towards IC bikes. Remember chemical photography - Kodak -- is no more, replaced by new players.
T
-
Nice : )
Yes! Customer Service unexcelled!! Brock from Zero just dropped off a ZF9 "S" loaner and drove away with my bike. Have a nice route home Google-mapped out!
=D
-
Nice : )
Yes! Customer Service unexcelled!! Brock from Zero just dropped off a ZF9 "S" loaner and drove away with my bike. Have a nice route home Google-mapped out!
=D
I'll be seeing him tomorrow morning. :)
-
As I was unable to get to Scotts Valley before closing today, I'm still on the ZF-9 "S" #'003. They tell me my bike had logged some failure codes; [?] and that the controller has been replaced and latest firmware is installed; testing has all been passed & battery recharged. I get to ride down to the factory after work Monday & ride home on my DS, about 60miles total-- there's an E-enduro run!
A mileage data point-- today's ride home on the "S" in slow traffic achieved a new economy record of under 2kWh to recharge after the 13.7mile[22km] journey. Splitting lanes most of the way... occasional bursts of 60mph... My DS normally takes around 2.25kWh each way, although there were a couple runs that took over 3kWh, after sustained top speed stretches in light traffic; the controller may have had issues, as those were among the last couple trips before the service!
-
I just heard back from Zero. They have finished working on my Zero S. They tell me that the controller was reprogrammed and the throttle assembly was replaced. The word is that should fix any power loss gremlins and improve the bike's throttle response. I am now waiting for a call to schedule the delivery of my bike. :)
-
A mileage data point-- today's ride home on the "S" in slow traffic achieved a new economy record of under 2kWh to recharge after the 13.7mile[22km] journey. Splitting lanes most of the way... occasional bursts of 60mph... My DS normally takes around 2.25kWh each way, although there were a couple runs that took over 3kWh, after sustained top speed stretches in light traffic; the controller may have had issues, as those were among the last couple trips before the service!
do you think that due to tyres and being slightly lower the S models might have better top end speed a slightly better economy ?
-
I just heard back from Zero. They have finished working on my Zero S. They tell me that the controller was reprogrammed and the throttle assembly was replaced. The word is that should fix any power loss gremlins and improve the bike's throttle response. I am now waiting for a call to schedule the delivery of my bike. :)
Same here. I logged about 125 miles on Zero bikes today, a record that's likely to stand! My DS-ZF6 was refurbished and tested Friday, but I couldn't get there before closing. It's likely that my "loaner", S-ZF9 #003, spent its first weekend in a garage, as I was too busy to ride! Made up for it today, logging 54 miles on the way from Sunnyvale to Scotts Valley via Lawrence, Quito, Hwy 9, Skyline, Bear Creek, Hwy 9, to Felton. The bottom two bars were flashing as I approached Scotts Valley... Took a [42 mile] more direct route back to Sunnyvale on the DS-ZF6 [Eco mode felt like the S-ZF9's Sport mode!]-- hwy 17 to Los Gatos, then back up to Quito and Lawrence to the Work-20, arriving with two blinking bars at 1:30 . Was still on full charge mode when I left work after 5:00, completing the 29 mile round-trip to work.
Glad to have my bike back. While I enjoyed the S-ZF9's higher top speed on the commute route, I missed my lighter quicker taller DS-ZF6... 950 miles so far, and SO glad I made the selection-- after essentially paying for the 2011 version on Halloween day!
-
hmm
we are comparing apples with oranges. 6 DS vs 9 S. right ? still would be interested in like/like comparision. say a 6S and DS. keen to upgrade omce we can in Oz !! as i have lots of traffic and up/down hill and certainly the regen breakin will be great to have....
-
hmm
we are comparing apples with oranges. 6 DS vs 9 S. right ? still would be interested in like/like comparision. say a 6S and DS. keen to upgrade omce we can in Oz !! as i have lots of traffic and up/down hill and certainly the regen breakin will be great to have....
I agree this thread can get a little confusing. Perhaps there should be separate threads for ZF9, ZF6 and other Zero model comments, along with the model years. They are all different, but similar, and it is easy to get confused who has which model and which model is being discussed under a particular thread.
-
Getting back to the subject, remember - glitch. This is getting serious now. Yesterday I went for a short ride on my 2010 DS, about 15 minutes, and it shut down completely twice during that ride. Turning off the key and back on had no effect, everything appeared to be dead. After coasting to a complete stop, and the passage of a minute or so, it all started working normally again.
I had previously had this problem only three times in a year and a half and now it was twice within a few minutes. :(
-
I agree this thread can get a little confusing. Perhaps there should be separate threads for ZF9, ZF6 and other Zero model comments, along with the model years. They are all different, but similar, and it is easy to get confused who has which model and which model is being discussed under a particular thread.
Can I recommend that each owner go to thier profile and list all relevant info on thier Zero?
E.g.
2012 DS ZF6
Mods as of 2/23/2012:
Updated throttle tube: 2/23/2012
OS upgrade 1.1334.3 (made that # up :D): 2/23/2012
Bridgestone trail wings: 2/10/2012
This may help people follow along and know what mods may be affecting range
-
Getting back to the subject, remember - glitch. This is getting serious now. Yesterday I went for a short ride on my 2010 DS, about 15 minutes, and it shut down completely twice during that ride. Turning off the key and back on had no effect, everything appeared to be dead. After coasting to a complete stop, and the passage of a minute or so, it all started working normally again.
I had previously had this problem only three times in a year and a half and now it was twice within a few minutes. :(
hi
had similar issues with the 2010. initially it felt like brushes gone and motor the problem. swapped motor. work for a while then again. finally we tried this current limiting dongle to be inserted. helped when fully charged. did not work when half charge or less... finally concluded the BMS to be likely the case. As I am very remote to Zero service we swapped bikes and mine went back to base. no idea what happened to it or the root cause.
Has anyone provided the fix with that dongle to you ? -- sorry do not know more details as the local dealer talks only spark plugs and oil.... as obviously the Zero is the new, weird thing in their range.
T
-
I had not heard of the "current limiting dongle" before. What is it, and where do I find out more about it? ???
I have been wondering if it may be poor contact in the main disconnect switch (my new 2012 doesn't have one of those) but it doesn't seem to make it come back any sooner if I pull up hard on the switch and wiggle it around. The switch quit "clicking" into place very early on. There is no positive detent to the mechanical action of the switch anymore.
-
I have no idea what causes your stalling problems, but I will hazard a guess. If your bikes were running fine for the past couple of years and then this shut-down problem just started, I would guess that the issue is not software, but hardware that is getting worn due to environmental conditions or road vibration. So I would start looking for worn or corroded contacts that might result in an intermittent issue. I think the first thing I would do is to remove the throttle assembly and check its contacts and connections. That seems like the most likely suspect to me.
Over the years I have had a number of electrical problems on my IC motorcycles (such as one bike catching fire while I was riding it) due to corroded contacts causing heavy resistance (think toaster oven). Corroded contacts have also resulted in crazy instrument displays and stalling due to ignition interlock switches failing.
I might add that on my 2012 Zero S, Zero replaced my throttle assembly (as well as updating the software to their latest program) when I complained about two intermittent stalling events. So far I have had no more stalling or running issues, but I plan to give the bike a good run this weekend just to make sure.
-
It is a year and a half old but only has less than 700 miles and has always been stored indoors. Plus the SoCal weather is not very hard on electrical parts. I do ride off-road so there has been bumby rides. I have been told that there were some problems with the brand of high current contactor they used on the early 2010's and my bike is one of the earliest to be shipped. It was a contact problem with those contactors so you may be right about contact resistance. Unfortunately I have also been told that it is a major job to get to the contactor so it looks like a job for the factory to address :-\ (I normally repair my own electrical problems).
-
Just wondering Trikester what the symptoms of worn brushes would be? Someone said rough riding. Have you ever replaced brushes? Someone on another forum said it is easy and takes 5 min. if you have the brushes, but they weren't talking about an Agni motor specifically. How easy would it be to get to the motor and replace the brushes is my question and secondly, is this something that will need to be done every 10,000 miles, 20,000 miles or maybe never? dkw
-
Just wondering Trikester what the symptoms of worn brushes would be? Someone said rough riding. Have you ever replaced brushes? Someone on another forum said it is easy and takes 5 min. if you have the brushes, but they weren't talking about an Agni motor specifically. How easy would it be to get to the motor and replace the brushes is my question and secondly, is this something that will need to be done every 10,000 miles, 20,000 miles or maybe never? dkw
Hi, I had an early Agni motor in my 2010 replaced with suspected misaligned brushes. The symptoms were strong grinding, intermittent - usually when riding harder and motor warm. Then bike stalls, won't start till cooled down. runs for a couple of miles, grinds, stalls. happened to me right in the middle of a 3 lane in rushour with no lane to pull out --- great fun >:(
Guess you will know when it comes to motor / brushes problems. Zero replaced the motor with one that they had wound themselves -- to improve quality of the motor. That one seemed to work and run later into BMS (batter management system) problems.
As for swapping the brushes, below manual goes into detail and you can judge for yourself if you are up for it.
http://www.agnimotors.com/workshop_manual_v1.pdf (http://www.agnimotors.com/workshop_manual_v1.pdf)
cheers
T
-
I have no idea what causes your stalling problems, but I will hazard a guess. If your bikes were running fine for the past couple of years and then this shut-down problem just started, I would guess that the issue is not software, but hardware that is getting worn due to environmental conditions or road vibration. So I would start looking for worn or corroded contacts that might result in an intermittent issue. I think the first thing I would do is to remove the throttle assembly and check its contacts and connections. That seems like the most likely suspect to me.
I might add that on my 2012 Zero S, Zero replaced my throttle assembly (as well as updating the software to their latest program) when I complained about two intermittent stalling events. So far I have had no more stalling or running issues, but I plan to give the bike a good run this weekend just to make sure.
My 2010 had problems as soon as I reached 1000kms or about 3 months. Hence pretty new I guess. Anyway for me thats history now and more worried that the 2011 has intermittent issues when I flick the throttle quickly. In fact your hint at the throttle assembly might be a good place to start. Now to do this out here will be difficult - no Zero tech that can stop by here .... :(
T
-
the motors just normally fry and you can smell that
throttles are just 0-5k ohm units and you can replace them easily enough if you dont want to pay Zero $100 for one
the brushes are not too bad to do but they are fiddly to set up as you have to set the advance angle quite accurately and there is a certain procedure to do this, see you tube somewhere...
It may be the bms inside the battery box ( the contactor is in there too unlike the X ) as they are prone to causing problems, get zero to send you a later one but you willl have to take the battery out to do it which is a BIG job, it will be a good opportunity to take a look inside for other gremlins
( tried to post a pic of it but the size limit is 600kb and my pic is too big, really annoying can anyone in admin sort this?)
-
Thanks for the info on brushes. What I would do is take it back to my dealer if I developed problems. They could take the motor out and send it off to be fixed I'm sure. A new Agni motor is about $1600 retail from Agni, so with Zero involved a new motor might be even cheaper and an alternative to trying to fix anything if you have to take the motor off to begin with. Just trying to think ahead. Agni probably does brushes, rebuilds, new motors, etc. I suppose if Zero changed the motor somehow, then all bets are off, but it looks like the 95R stock motor. So far, the bike operates very nicely and I ride it every day. Just passed 1500 miles.
-
Egads! I have just under 700 miles on the bike - I can't believe that I have worn out brushes already. I think it must be something else.
Trikester
-
Oh no, I'm not diagnosing your trouble. I have no idea what's causing that problem. I'm just thinking out loud what I would do if I had bad brushes some time in the future on my own 2011 Zero S. Hope you can get it straightened out though and it turns out to be something simple.
-
Trikester, sounds like a contactor problem. Bring it to the shop and we can fix it. Your bike is still under warranty, right? So we should take care of it sooner rather than wait.
-
OK Harlan, I'll figure out when I can bring it in. Right now it is out at my desert cabin (so am I). I brought my '47 Matchless out here for the annual antique motorcycle rides (over 100 riders this year!). I'll have to decide if I want to leave the Matchless out here so that I can haul the 2010 back to town with me, or wait until the next time I come out here.
it should still be under warranty since I took delivery in mid-August of 2010 and also, the first time it shut down was last winter (2011).
-
A 1947 Matchbox, Trikester? What you need is one of these: http://www.youtube.com/embed/iKqpvriKZuA (http://www.youtube.com/embed/iKqpvriKZuA) ;D
-
Excellent!!!
-
After 1,300 miles it started happening to me too.
The first time was a couple of weeks ago - I was riding to work in 'Sport' mode. I was waiting at a red light and when it turned green I turned the throttle... and nothing happened. I had to push the bike out of traffic so the cars behind me could go.
The second time was a couple of days ago - I was riding in town at night in 'Eco' mode. Again at a red light the throttle didn't respond and I had to get out of the way of the angry folks behind me (honking their horns).
In both cases turning the key off and back on did the trick as far as reseting it so I could move again. Since I was in sortof a panic to get out of the way I didn't look at the dash to see if there were any warning lights flashing.
I spoke with Zero and the dealership - they asked me to bring the bike in for the software update - I just have to coordinate with the dealership - it will be a few weeks before I can get the bike there, as the Zero technician doesn't usually work weekends.
-
When my bike stalled I looked at the instrument panel and there were no warning lights or messages on the screen. Everything looked normal, but it just wouldn't go. So far, since the program update and the throttle replacement, everything has been working fine. But I only have 600 miles on the bike.
My guess would be that it is a mechanical issue with the throttle not getting the "go" signal to the controller. It seems to me that a programming issue would occur much more often. ???
-
All this talk has me, as a prospective buyer, rather worried. It suggests that the bikes are not very reliable over time, that the longevity of some key parts is more short-lived than the battery, and that those of us not blessed with living near the Zero headquarters could be in for a real unpleasant ownership experience, potentially (especially with the extra hassle of cross-border shipping and duty fees for parts, delays, etc). Have I misread between the lines here?
-
My bike was number 51 off the assembly line. With any new product, you can expect some issues. If they get addressed quickly by the factory, then the customers who buy later models should have no problems. I have been buying BMW motorcycles for the past 25 years and I can tell you that every one of them had lots of problems that needed to be resolved under their 3-year warranty. The newer the model is the more issues the customer is stuck with. So far I have only had the one very minor problem with my bike stalling at an intersection twice in 300 miles. That problem seems to have been resolved and my Zero has been very reliable ever since. That is a lot better track record than I had with my two Electric Motorsport GPR-S bikes and all of the BMWs that I have owned over the years.
Based upon my experience, I wouldn't worry too much about the reliability of the 2012 Zero models.
-
ok. I'll have to remember to ask my local dealer what production number the one is that is already in his showroom (with my name on it)... :-\
blake
-
I left this in a different post, but I may need to leave this suggestion here too.
The potentiometer problem is something they might be able to address by changing the "regular" mechanical potentiometer for a hall-effect sensor.
"A Hall effect sensor is a transducer that varies its output voltage in response to a magnetic field. Hall effect sensors are used for proximity switching, positioning, speed detection, and current sensing applications.
In its simplest form, the sensor operates as an analogue transducer, directly returning a voltage. With a known magnetic field, its distance from the Hall plate can be determined. Using groups of sensors, the relative position of the magnet can be deduced"
-
I have number 96 (2012 S VIN xxxx00096), 700 miles on the bike, haven't yet had a problem with the throttle.
Most of their sales thus far have been local. I live in AL, some few thousand miles away from the factory. For minor problems, like a throttle assembly, I expect Zero could ship out a part and instructions I swap the part myself. Otherwise, the closest Zero dealership is about 90 miles away in Birmingham, AL.
-
Zero service is great. even 10000 miles+ away. can get spares direct to Oz so and as this is an so easy bike installation of throttle replacement or so --- if ever needed ---- not a problem ...
:)
-
I'm bringing my ZF9 to the dealership this weekend. They will do the firmware "flash" to address the throttle issues. I have to leave it for a week and pick it up the following weekend, since the technician doesn't work weekends. So I'll be riding my old Vectrix for a week 8)
-
So I had this happen to me a few minutes ago.
I was riding in the carpool lane on 101, sport mode, doing about 60 mph behind one of those double-decker buses when I started coasting seeing the bus in front of me slowing down. When the bus sped up my throttle was unresponsive. After a few seconds of panic I remembered this thread and while still coasting, I turned the key to "off" and back to "on". That solved the issue.
Few notes:
- the throttle was unresponsive but the display was lit. I don't think it showed any indications however I might have missed them.
- when I came home my mileage was .2 miles less than usual, that tells me the controlling computer crashed, it was not just a display issue
- when booting up, my screen shows u7, 2011. Perhaps I should get the controller upgraded?
How did you guys solve this problem? Did you go through Zero directly or through the dealer?
-
It's good to know that you can reboot while coasting. Without a clutch I'd be worried that turning the bike off might lock up something, though I guess the worst it could do would be "very hard regen braking"...
-
I think I've experienced a glitch once - but in my case, it was after turning the bike on, gearing up, and preparing to leave. Twisting the grip did nothing - no warnings displayed on the cluster, the general malfunction light was not lit, etc. Switched the bike off and back on, worked fine.
-
Hi. Have got the same glitch with motor cut out on 2011 S. no problem to restart while coasting. Have as well not got any warning lights. Replaced throttle assembly which did not fix it. I am on version r6 of the firmware.
My suPplying dealer would not know anythimg to upgrade firmware. Rather do it myself as i am trained in electronics and done many firmware ups. Lets see if Zero can send me the new firmware.
-
So I had this happen to me a few minutes ago.
I was riding in the carpool lane on 101, sport mode, doing about 60 mph behind one of those double-decker buses when I started coasting seeing the bus in front of me slowing down. When the bus sped up my throttle was unresponsive. After a few seconds of panic I remembered this thread and while still coasting, I turned the key to "off" and back to "on". That solved the issue.
Now i have thought on this and welcome feedback. The controller limits the current especially when accelarating the bike from 0. Slowish of the line speed. Once at speed the bike is very agile and seems not limited much. If we now have a situation of slowing at speed the current drops, then accellerate current jumps up. Possibly to high through cables etc. upsetting the controller?
Anyway would be interesting to know on what firmware everyone is and if u have this.
-
My stalling issue never occurred while my bike was moving, only when it was stopped for a minute or two. I never saw any unusual displays when it stalled or when I rebooted the controller to get going again. Zero read about my problem here, called me up at home to say that they would pick my bike up at my home, take it to the factory and return it in a few days. They installed the latest program for the controller (I have no idea which program it is), replaced the throttle assembly, and returned the bike to my home as promised. It has worked perfectly ever since (knock on wood, as they say).
-
When I power on my bike, I see 'u 2011' (or 'j'?) on the display. Do you see that now Richard230, or has it changed since the upgrade?
-
The only thing that I have ever noticed on the display (before and after my bike's visit to Zero) upon powering-up is "r6", below that is "2010" and off at the lower right-hand corner is "11". Upon the needle swinging to the right, the "2010" and the "11" disappear and only the "r6" remains, until the speedo needle swings back to home and that disappears, to be replaced by the running screen.
-
Got the software upgraded today. Hats off to Mission Motorcycles who provided a loaner so I could get back to work and called a Zero tech who upgraded the software. The bootup indicators did not change, the display still says u7 2011.
As a side note, I depleted all the 11 bars of the battery (didn't have much chance to charge it today). I rode over 5 miles on a completely empty "tank" and still had some charge when I arrived home :)
-
Thanks for the information rotoiti. It sounds like the Zero really has 12 bars and they are just hiding one of them. :) Did you happen to note how many kWh it took to completely recharge the battery pack. That would give us some idea of what its actual usable power capacity is and would provide a baseline for comparing any degradation of the pack in the future.
P.S. My Zero and I are heading for the Pacific Coast Dream Machines Show at the Half Moon Bay Airport today. When you have to slowly creep along in a long line of vehicles to enter the show, the Zero is the perfect vehicle for that task - especially when placed in Eco mode. :)
-
Did you happen to note how many kWh it took to completely recharge the battery pack.
Yes, I just read both of my kill-a-watts -- it took 8.48 kWh. 4.15 kWh via the built-in charger and 4.33 kWh via the quick charger. The chargers were plugged in roughly at the same time. So perhaps there was more energy left in the pack than I originally estimated. I expected over 9 kWh (due to energy losses in the chargers) to fully charge a 9 kWh pack.
An interesting observation: the built-in charger completely shuts off when done (drawing 0 A). The quick charger draws about 0.14 A when idle.
-
In this kind of digital-controlled applications using regular potentiometers -the high quality ones last a little longer-, sooner or later the headaches show up...
I really hope they are working in replacing the potentiometer for a hall-effect sensor, or similar (with a suitable retrofit kit for all of us). Software twisting, or adjustments may soften the problem, but it will not fix it long term. Unfortunately, I know what it is like...(had to replace a few hundreds potentiometers in a machine joystic controller, and in the end move to hall-effect)
-
An interesting observation: the built-in charger completely shuts off when done (drawing 0 A). The quick charger draws about 0.14 A when idle.
My onboard (single) charger draws the same 0.14A once it's charged and balanced, but the power factor is very low, <0.3. Guess it needs a little juice from one, and only one, charger.
-
My on-board charger shows a 7-watt draw all the time, after bulk charging is completed.
And there wasn't a single electric vehicle at the Dream Machines show that I was able to locate. A lot of interesting gas-powered machinery was there, though. Well, there was one electric motorcycle there - mine. ;)
-
Did you happen to note how many kWh it took to completely recharge the battery pack.
Yes, I just read both of my kill-a-watts -- it took 8.48 kWh. 4.15 kWh via the built-in charger and 4.33 kWh via the quick charger. The chargers were plugged in roughly at the same time. So perhaps there was more energy left in the pack than I originally estimated. I expected over 9 kWh (due to energy losses in the chargers) to fully charge a 9 kWh pack.
An interesting observation: the built-in charger completely shuts off when done (drawing 0 A). The quick charger draws about 0.14 A when idle.
The 9kWh pack has 7.9kWh "nominal", whatever that means. I took it to mean that they never let the batteries get to 100% charge (similar to the Teslas which limit the charge on their batteries unless you specifically request a range-maximizing charge - I would expect a smaller battery pack on a motorcycle to be even more sensitive to maxing out the charge and so they may not allow a full charge to a full 9kWh capacity).
-
And there wasn't a single electric vehicle at the Dream Machines show that I was able to locate. A lot of interesting gas-powered machinery was there, though. Well, there was one electric motorcycle there - mine. ;)
Strange -- the web site even mentions a "green machines" exhibit (mostly hybrid cars, it looks like):
http://www.miramarevents.com/dreammachines/greenmachines.html (http://www.miramarevents.com/dreammachines/greenmachines.html)
At least you carried the torch. I mean, come on, who _doesn't_ dream about electric bikes? :)
I look forward to some local charity rides around where I live later in the year. Should be interesting, the hundreds of Harleys (and their puzzled riders) and me. I sure hope I don't experience "the glitch" in the middle of it all, though I doubt anyone would notice in all that racket if I turned the bike off and back on again :)
-
If there were any Volts, Leafs or plug-ins at the show, I sure didn't see them. :-X
No electric-powered planes either, other than a few RC models. ;)
Although I couldn't find any electric motorcycles to photograph, here is one that is sort of the opposite of an EV ;)
-
Dream machine indeed. Straight from a nightmare :)
-
Yeah, if I ever need to pull my travel trailer with my bike, I'll look into one of those :)
Anti-EV, indeed. On a trailer, Valdez-size oil slick underneath, Cummins power -- Cummins?!? Least he could do is take off the rear tire(s), hook up a generator and let you charge. Dang.
-
I just got my bike (2012 ZF9) back from the shop - they updated the software to deal with the throttle glitch. I've only ridden it for a couple of days, but so far it seems fine - I haven't experienced the glitch again.
-
Good news oobflyer. Let's hope this issue has been corrected at the factory and later models will finely be glitch-free. :)
-
Now I'm convinced, there is definitely a problem with the ECO mode operation.
Yesterday I did a SoCal desert dirt ride, out and back, 25 miles total. I rode the first half in SPORT mode and then for the return trip I wanted to ride in ECO mode to take advantage of the "compression braking" to hold me back on sandy downhills. This worked very well until one time there was no power when I rolled the throttle back on. Power was restored in a couple of seconds. Then it happened again. After rolling off the throttle I had no power when I went to accelerate. It didn't come back this time so I switched off the key and changed back to SPORT mode for the rest of the ride.
ZERO had repaired the original problem I had with ECO mode so this is something different. I think the software is misinterpreting what is happening and telling the controller to shut down. >:(
Other than that the ride was great! The 2012 DS with its greater fork rake angle handles soft sand much better than my 2010 DS did. I only fell down once. ;D The 25 mile ride used 1/2 of the battery so it looks like I have at least 50 miles of dirt riding capability (ZF 6)
-
So I had this happen to me a few minutes ago.
I was riding in the carpool lane on 101, sport mode, doing about 60 mph behind one of those double-decker buses when I started coasting seeing the bus in front of me slowing down. When the bus sped up my throttle was unresponsive. After a few seconds of panic I remembered this thread and while still coasting, I turned the key to "off" and back to "on". That solved the issue.
Few notes:
- the throttle was unresponsive but the display was lit. I don't think it showed any indications however I might have missed them.
- when I came home my mileage was .2 miles less than usual, that tells me the controlling computer crashed, it was not just a display issue
- when booting up, my screen shows u7, 2011. Perhaps I should get the controller upgraded?
How did you guys solve this problem? Did you go through Zero directly or through the dealer?
My first commute with the new street tires this morning, [on my '12 DS ZF6] travelling in the diamond lane about 75 MPH for a couple miles up 101, when the dreaded 'glitch' occurred again; this time I noticed a strong vibration just before the power loss, as if a phase of the motor had "locked on" or similar...
After exhausting a full charge on twisty roads going as fast as I felt comfortable, and then experiencing a shutdown on the first highway run with the ~3% smaller rear tire-- I am wondering how to acquire a front sprocket for the "S" model, i.e. the 28 [vs 25] tooth version. That would seem to be the solution to the daily commute speed requirements, at the expense of off-the-line acceleration... and hopefully reduce the frequency of the motor/controller's objections to its ~100 Hz extended attempts!
-
-- and I forgot to mention, the odometer was a couple tenths 'short' when I arrived at work this morning... coasting with the key off / rebooting doesn't count!
:o
-
Maybe it's a 101 problem, not Zero problem? ;-) My shutdown happened in the same situation.
Did you get your software upgraded?
-
Maybe it's a 101 problem, not Zero problem? ;-) My shutdown happened in the same situation.
Did you get your software upgraded?
After the original occurrence, Zero replaced the controller and updated the software [?] and things seemed OK for some time. After looking at the specs for the motor, it seems running it at 100Hz is exceeding the recommended limits...
-
It seems like the larger front cogwheel should be able to be sourced from the Zero factory. You should contact their technical department about that. Maybe giving them a call or visiting their factory might obtain the desired item.
I wouldn't be surprised if the 101 is causing your glitch problem. It probably has something to do with Moffitt Field, where NASA and the Ames Laboratory is located. I hear they are working on the flying saucer that they located in the Oregon backwoods there. ;D I haven't ridden my bike on that freeway for any more that a couple of miles. I stick to I-280 and haven't had a single glitch on that freeway - although I admit to steering clear of the Stanford Linear Accelerator. :o
-
I lived for 7 month in Cupertino reading you ride 101 and 280 or a trip to SF make me " homesick " :'(
-
It seems like the larger front cogwheel should be able to be sourced from the Zero factory. You should contact their technical department about that. Maybe giving them a call or visiting their factory might obtain the desired item.
I wouldn't be surprised if the 101 is causing your glitch problem. It probably has something to do with Moffitt Field, where NASA and the Ames Laboratory is located. I hear they are working on the flying saucer that they located in the Oregon backwoods there. ;D I haven't ridden my bike on that freeway for any more that a couple of miles. I stick to I-280 and haven't had a single glitch on that freeway - although I admit to steering clear of the Stanford Linear Accelerator. :o
Heh. It always has happened between Story and McKee... ???
-
OMG! Don't ride anywhere near the meteor crater in AZ.
-
OMG! Don't ride anywhere near the meteor crater in AZ.
The one that just missed the highway? (http://www.ozjokes.com/jokes/29-miscellaneous/2250-just-missed) :)
-
LOL ! That's a good one ;D
-
It seems like the larger front cogwheel should be able to be sourced from the Zero factory. You should contact their technical department about that. Maybe giving them a call or visiting their factory might obtain the desired item. ...
Zero informed me that the 28T sprocket is available, requires a longer belt, which requires removal of the swingarm. They suggest I get my "local" dealer to do the job...
Having scored a speeding ticket going a laser-clocked 86 MPH on I-80E [in my car] last Saturday, my perceived requirement for sustained speeds over 80 are somewhat diminished, so I believe I'll keep the 25T stock sprocket on there for a while!
::)
-
Was about half way to work this morning, going 75 or so in the diamond lane, when the motor abruptly quit. ... overheating seems unlikely... ?
This has happened a couple more times since I got the street tires...
Just emailed the folks at Zero:
"Greetings,
I have owned my 2012 DS ZF6 [#00017] since late January and enjoy it immensely.
OTOH, I have experienced motor shutdown on the highway several times, even since having the throttle handle, controller & software update serviced; each time after a period of a few minutes in excess of 75 MPH "airspeed", i.e. into a moderate headwind. The latest [4th or 5th total] event was resolved like the previous couple times, by re-booting via the key switch while coasting up hwy 101 in the median shoulder lane; I did manage to see the overheat indicator just before switching off.
It occurred to me that if it is the battery pack itself that is getting too hot [at 2 to 2.5C discharge rate, I could understand that!] that a potential remedy might be another "ZF3" string to share the load. Which brings me to inquire if an upgrade path exists, addition or swap out, or what a ZF9 pack would cost me...
Can you please advise?
Many thanks,"
Anybody here know about such things? ???
-
Batteries are rated for 5C constant, 10C burst discharge. 2-2.5C discharge should be no problem - for example, the TTXGP esuperstock bikes are probably at or above that rate for the entire race.
-
My bike switched itself off today on I-280. It was a hot day and I was maintaining 70 mph for 20+ miles with little headwind. When I "rebooted", the heat indicator came on and disappeared after a minute or so.
-
The summer time is not a good friend of our air-cooled motor :( ...
Getting the "red light" on ,and eventually shut off the bike is pretty easy these days here in Spain...As probably in California or Arizona!!
-
Batteries are rated for 5C constant, 10C burst discharge. 2-2.5C discharge should be no problem - for example, the TTXGP esuperstock bikes are probably at or above that rate for the entire race.
That's reassuring, although the motor has never felt uncomfortably warm to the touch after a commute... Now I really wonder what's getting hot-- if not the battery pack, that only leaves the controller or the motor?
-
for 2011's if this happens it often means a bad contactor :
for 2012s if you need a reboot, you may have CAN/BUS noise from an over heated motor or controller. I have had to power cycle on the track before.
ask your dealer to re-calibrate the sin wave with the motor upto temp, that may help, at least I imagine it does. Harlan at Hollywood Electrics did it for me on my racing partners bike. I rode it up through the mountains behind hollywood until I got to thermal warning, then raced back to his shop where we threw it up on a rear stand and re-calibrated it immediately... of course you dont have to go all balls to the wall like that, just warm the motor up and you should be good to go, I just liked immagining I was at IOM running those crazy hills behind Yamashiro.
-
OK, I've been following this thread and I've never had a glitch in the 1800 miles I've ridden so far.
Until today. Twice. :-\
Both times, I was at a stop (turning left). I opened the throttle and the bike accelerated to about 3 mph, and then bang - dead.
I coasted/scooted the rest of the way through the intersection; and the carefully looked for issues.
The dash indicators were not on or blinking. The BMS LED's were normal. The charger was dark (of course). Don't know what else to look at.
"Rebooting" fixed it. I was in ECO mode.
I had just ridden a few miles; ambient was 80F; I doubt it had to do with heat.
When I got home I made a concerted effort around the neighborhood to make it happen again - several dozen starts-from-stops - worked fine.
My dash indicator shows 2011/u7/11 - but it doesn't sound like that's related to the "reprogramming".
I've reread this thread a couple of times,
Richard230, your glitch never happened when the bike was moving - have you had it happen again since your upgrade?
oobflyer - you haven't posted on the thread since your Apr30th upgrade - have you had it happen since?
rotoiti - it looks like you had it happen once since your upgrade - but it may have been heat related as after the reboot you saw the heat indicator?
I guess I'm wondering if the upgrade fixes "it". Or if "it" is a symptom of several problems ( heat related, software related, etc ) and the upgrade just fixes one of them?
Do you guys recommend emailing zero support or calling them?
-
Hi ColoPaul. I have never had a stalling problem since my bike was reprogrammed and the throttle assembly replaced at about 300 miles. I now have almost 2000 miles on the bike and it still runs fine - although I am having to give hand signals when I turn or change lanes as my turn indicator relay died and I am awaiting a call from the shop that the part has arrived.
-
No, it hasn't happened again - whatever they did in April did the trick :)
-
interestingly on my 2011 I had during hot weather very occasionally a motor cut out - no warning lights. Only once the "contactor" warning code came up. So what to do on that one ?
now in colder weather bike runs very well. Have only a slide noise in the motor that seems to come from the brushes - do not notice performance issues though. Any other Agni rider having this ?
-
In my case -after 1.800 Mi never had the "glitch" problem for far...but sooner or later it will also happen to me...no question >:(
"In this kind of intensive use digital-controlled applications, using mechanical potentiometers -the conductive plastic ones last a little longer-, sooner or later the headaches show up...
I really hope Zero is working in replacing the potentiometer system for a hall-effect sensor, or any other digital transducer (with a suitable retrofit kit for all of us). Software twisting, or adjustments may soften the problem, but it will not fix it long term as a pot. it is made of different components subjected to friction. Unfortunately, I know what it is like...(had to replace a few hundreds potentiometers in a machine joystick controller, and in the end move to hall-effect)" since that upgrade as far as I know the customers only brake the joystick handle ;D
-
I had a strange issue also, was stopped at a traffic light for about 30 seconds, when it was time to go ...nothing, pushed to the curb and turned off the key then on, ok since then..weird--no codes or warning lights
-
Update: Glitched twice Monday, once Tuesday, four times Wednesday, and today I was barely able to get it to work and back.
Doesn't seem like software, since I had no glitches for 1800 miles, now this.
I'll have to load it in the trailer and haul it down to service tomorrow. :'(
They said they'd take data files and measurements, send it off to Zero; 3-4 days later Zero will recommend what they should replace; 3-4 days more waiting for parts to arrive and then 1-2 days to get the parts installed. Yuk, 2 weeks without my bike. :'(
Interestingly, unlike the 'freeway speed' glitch talked about mostly in this thread, my glitch occurred under 5 mph, generally with throttle wide open--although it got worse through the week--Today I saw the glitch decelerating as well as accelerating, and at speeds as high as 15-20 mph.
-
It is very likely to be the pot. malfunctioning.
The resistance variation/noise produced might be driving the bike computer crazy...2 weeks out of service for just a $5 part >:(
-
ColoPaul, mine is doing this also. Mostly when trying to go full throttle or close to it from a stop or slow speed. I have a brand new BMS and the highway cutouts from rain are hopefully over. This seems like it has to do with motor timing for the correct phase input to the Sevcon. I am just used to it for now and go easy till about 10 mph if I am in heavy traffic and always leave myself an exit to pull over. The dealers have the equipment to reset the timing. My closest dealer is almost 200 miles away, but I plan to ride it there and have them reset it while I wait and ride it home. This might be a strange observation, but I feel it is worse the hotter it is outside, not sure if there is a connection there or not.
-
ColoPaul I had a defect throttle and it was a bit similar to our first post.
I had power loss and at a uphill part the bike was nearly dead. After a certain time I could ride. Next day at morning it was running but felt a bit week, afternoon it was as weak that I had to push it on my trailer.
The strange thing for me is the "regenaration" of the throttle and the fact it runs once only 10Km/H than quite normal next day nearly nothing. Therefore my first thought was not a simple Throttle defect.
-
Thanks for all the feedback, guys. It's good to have a Zero support group!
ColoPaul, mine is doing this also. Mostly when trying to go full throttle or close to it from a stop or slow speed. I am just used to it for now and go easy till about 10 mph if I am in heavy traffic and always leave myself an exit to pull over.
Interesting, this sounds like my problem except I went from "never happened in 1800 miles" to "couldn't get the bike moving without manually pushing it to 2-3mph and then VERY carefully applying throttle and even then it's a 50-50 chance it'd crap out" in just 4 days. How often would you say you experience the glitch?
It is very likely to be the pot. malfunctioning. The resistance variation/noise produced might be driving the bike computer crazy...2 weeks out of service for just a $5 part >:(
Well, it's in the shop now. 4 hour start-to-finish to get it there! :P When the diagnosis comes in I'll post what they say.
-
Got the glitch twice today (7/19) when riding back from work. Bit disconcerting.
And once yesterday (7/20). Guess it's time to call Zero.
-
New here. So today I was riding in sport mode coming out of a parking lot. I heard a clunk sound and the engine died. After recycling the key twice it started to work, but now there is a violent vibration coming from the motor. Any ideas?
Never mind, just plugged in, and after 45 min. unplugged. Bike is smooth again.
2012 ZF6 1045 mile in 4 weeks.
-
Sounds exactly like what happened to me on Thursday - moderately hard braking, and a thunk right before the bike stopped.. and then nothing when I twisted the grip.
Edit: Before it failed friday (7/20), the motor started to suddenly run a little roughly, then it cut out completely. If you've ever run out of gas on a gas motorcycle, it feels very much like that. Today (7/23) it also began to run a little roughly but did not cut out.
I bet Lipo423 is correct. I think a failing throttle assembly (whether it is a pot or not) starts to send a noisy signal to the control computer. I think the control computer already does some filtering on the signal (to smooth it out, and possibly to enable the Eco / Sport modes) .. when the signal starts to change more quickly than the physical assembly could possibly control (for example full to zero in 5 ms) or the computer registers a certain number of these events within a certain time period, the computer kills the throttle until the bike is restarted. It's irritating is there is no control code shown on the bike display when this happens.
-
Interesting thread, had the Problem once already at 600km on the clock,
now 1200km - no problems.
Do you think this will be recall #3 in my first 5 weeks of ownership?
Would love to get hall sensors as replacement ....
-
I'm seeing this as a "follower" of the BMS board replacement...and really, really hope they are working one this as someone could have an accident because of this >:(
Protomech: Have you checked the pot type we have in our bikes? Is it carbon, or conductive plastic? (I did not check myself as I did not want to "call for bad weather" :-[
If it is carbon, a "$5 home made" solution is to replace it for conductive plastic (it produces less noise) until we have a better solution from Zero.
-
Aiyaa.... you guys are so much more technically apt. :/
I just wanted to express gratitude for this thread, and I dread the glitch.
I get this now every time I ride ~ often randomly: My 2012 S ZF9 would be operating like normal, but then at a stop either on level ground or at slight incline, the expected response to the throttle doesn't happen (and I just about break into sweat as the bike rolls back one foot due to said incline), I would then let the throttle spring back to neutral and roll-back on the throttle all the way until I get the response (and never had to wait more than 2 seconds). Eco mode. More likely to happen at an incline than level, and I probably look like I'm forgetting to engage the clutch pumping the throttle like that... except for the silence. :)
I'm a very new rider, only in my first 3,500 miles (ever) on motorized two wheels, and I'd already dropped the bike once (thankfully -- and embarrassingly -- when parked, and needed help hoisting it back up*).
+ m
* probably would not be a problem if I engaged in a fitness regimen. ha!
-
Hello Mehive. You might try being more positive when opening the throttle. I think the stalling issue when at a stop has to do with the throttle. It takes more movement of the throttle to get the bike rolling in Eco mode than is true for most IC motorcycles. Try giving the throttle a positive turn when taking off from a stop in that mode and see if that helps.
-
Mehive did your bike fall over to the right side => throttle?
I also had a defect throttle and your loss of power reminds me to mine.
I have the feeling the throttle is not very valuable.
Yesterday I had a discussion with a Quantya dealer, he is testing different throttles.
Maybe I will pick up one if his results are positive.
-
Update:
Took the bike in 1 week ago; the dealer took the data file and sent it to Zero that day. According to the service manager, he calls Zero every day, and they haven't yet provided him with a diagnosis. ??? Is the service manager feeding me a line because he has better-paying non-warranty work to do? Or is Zero service swamped with recall work and broken bikes? Gives a new meaning to "Zero feedback"!! :D At some point, I'm going to call that warranty manager at Zero who called me sometime back and see if I can get some info.
-
I have been an Electronic Technician and Computer Engineer for 35 years. I think Lipo423 has a good idea if you are using mechanical potentiometer to control the bike. What I have seen with these potentiometers in joysticks on CAD/CAM equipment is that they normally create a dead spot. This dead spot is normally where the potentiometer sits most of the time and can create erroneous signals possibly going negative when you want a positive direction. One thing though, if it is replaced the problem would go away for as long as the original potentiometer took to fail.
I think Richard230 idea “You might try being more positive when opening the throttle†might be good it the dead spot is at the neutral throttle position.
I was reading an owner manual for a ZEV scooter at http://www.environmentfriendlystore.com/pdf/ZEV-Operations-Manual.pdf. (http://www.environmentfriendlystore.com/pdf/ZEV-Operations-Manual.pdf.)
They were saying “A very slow small throttle opening and an immediate rollback may result in the controller shutdown†on their bike. It says that the controller sees this as if the bike is against a wall and unable to move. Also they warn about revving the throttle as if you were on an ICE bike. Also they warn about trying to hold the bike on a hill with the throttle and not the brake.
It would be interesting if the Brammo Enetia throttle was a compatible replacement.
-
When I'm walking my DS up the ramp into the bed of my pickup I hold it briefly with the throttle several times as I take a new step on the parallel ramp. I've never had a problem with anything due to these brief holds, on a steep slope, with the throttle. I supposed if I tried to hold it for an extended period something would overheat and perhaps fail. :(
Trikester
-
How many of you have experienced a motor vibration resulting in a loss of power or cutout?
I am positive this has something to do with motor timing. About a week ago I rode almost 400 miles and back to the Zero dealer in Sarasota FL and we re calibrated the timing of the motor to the controller. The low speed cutouts ceased to happen which was the main issue, pulling away from stoplights and having a loss of power. But immediately after I am experiencing motor vibrations like the magnetic forces in the motor are working against each other, usually after 15-20 minutes of riding. it kinda feels and sounds like you go from riding on a smooth road to riding on rough road with gravel and sand and the bike having so much rolling resistance it slows down even though you are on the throttle. If i accelerate hard when it does this it always cuts out, however letting off the throttle and back on doesn't usually fix it either. ususally when riding I have to try cycling the key back and forth a few times till it doesnt happen anymore. I wish there was a way to leave the headlight on when doing this, as often i confuse drivers around me as the headlight goes out for 5-6 seconds.
There has been a theory raised that the motor needs to be hot and close to peak temp when performing the recalibration. My bike was sitting, waiting for an hour or so before the calibration took place. So, if you're taking your bike in for service, request they ride (or you) 3-5 min at 88 mph (or do full throttle acceleration up and down a side street over and over again) until you get the solid temperature indicator and then perform the function CALSINCOS right away. I plan on doing this in the next few days and will let you know the results. It does seem like something that gets worse with time as I also remember not having a single issue for almost 2000 miles and then over the last 4k (6k miles on the bike now) it has been getting what seems to be progressively worse. I used to think it was the throttle having dead spots but am not leaning that way anymore. I think it has to do with how the controller thinks the motor positioning is.
-
Sounds like the motor roughness I'm experiencing.
Zero is shipping the bike back to them for diagnosis and correction. Will report back when I hear more.
-
Update, 2 weeks.
This morning, after much prodding, I got a call from the dealer telling me they finally got a call from Zero regarding the diagnosis. Zero is sending out a new BMS board; so I guess my glitch is not throttle related as some had thought. The dealer said it'll take 5 business days for the part to arrive; and then they'll need time to install. Close to a month without my bike. :( I pushed the dealer for more info but that's all they'd say. I hope the new BMS fixes it!!
I wish I had Richard230's karma (note Zero even called him proactively, just based on his post in this forum):
In any case, I just received a call from Zero, who told me that they wanted to go over my bike and reprogram the controller. They are going to stop by my home later this week, pick up my bike and return it to the factory, drop off a loaner for me to use while mine is being checked over and fixed at the factory. They will ride it around for a day to make sure everything is up to spec and return it to my home. All I have to do is to open up my garage door a couple of times. Now that is what I call great service! ;D
Hey Zero, if you're reading this I'd love to know:
Why isn't there any indication of failure on the display when the glitch happens? -- What is actually happening when the glitch occurs?
What failed on my BMS board and what is different about the new BMS board that would give me confidence that this won't happen again?
-
Ok so I'm going through this thread and it seems like there might be 2 issues. The one that richard and oobflyer experienced and was fixed, and the other that all the rest of us are experiencing where the motor cuts out and sometimes feels like it is out of phase with the controller and runs rough. it looks like about 8 of us on this forum. Anyone else?
I think if Zero can get one bike back and figure out what it is, instead of paying to ship the bikes back and forth we can perform the fix ourselves. At least that's what I'm hoping for. I think Protomech's bike may be the first they will have gotten back. I don't know how many other Zero owners are encountering this that aren't on this forum. There's about 30 of us here and about a quarter of us have the issue. And most of us didn't have any problem for the first 2000 miles or so, and then went another 1000 or so before the 2nd occurance, and have had it get worse and worse as the miles rack up. Mine only cut out twice before I hit 4000 miles. i'm at a little over 6,500 miles now and its definitely getting worse as time goes on. I wonder if those who haven't had it occur have less than 2-3 thousand miles? I'm just trying to grasp the scope of this, although I talked to one of the guys a Zero yesterday and he said they have bikes there with 25,000 miles and haven't experienced this. I almost couldn't believe that.
I requested a set of cables to try experimenting with recalibrating the motor to the controller at different temperatures (there's a chance getting the motor hot first might help) to see if I can make it better, and they were going to send a set, but a week later said they informed me they couldn't let end users have these cables and I needed to ship my bike back to them. What?? close to $2000 in shipping versus a $15 OBDII to USB cable? Someone at Zero needs to revisit the math on that one, lol.
The timing procedure takes less than 5 minutes once the back wheel is off the ground. Richard230, when you talk to the other Richard at Zero, Richard Walker, make sure you express the insanity of shipping bikes back and forth 3000 miles to perform a 5 minute adjustment? In fact I might just email him myself soon to discuss the issue the bikes are having and the best way to go about solving it. My stance is the decision should be the customers. If the customer doesn't feel comfortable doing his own service, than Zero should pay to ship the bike back and fix it for them, but from a financial aspect, encouraging customers to learn about their bikes and perform simple tasks like the BMS replacement or timing is logically the best approach.
If it's a liability issue, that if we perform something incorrectly and it causes us to have an accident, let us sign something saying they aren't liable and we wish to perform our own service at our own risk. But i don't think there's anything any of us could do to make is less safe than it is right now when i'm in the middle of a packed highway with traffic moving at 75 mph and the bike cuts out and I'm trying to reset the key over and over as drivers are trying to run me over and i'm going too slow to cut a lane over to get to he shoulder, Or pulling out to cross a busy road and the bike cuts out and you panic to push the bike away from the car hitting you at 50 mph like a sitting duck. Given the choice from what I experience right now, I'd gladly sign the waiver, lol.
Thoughts on this?
-
My feeling is that if you think there is a safety issue with the 2012 Zeros (and it appears that is what you believe), you should file a complaint with the NHTSA. That might result in a recall and fix. After all, Zero did a recall for the front brake switch and the BMS board waterproofing. Your issue would seem to be even more serious.
-
I definitely would like Zero to discover the problem themselves vs being forced to do some sort of recall. The last BMS recall I'm wondering if it was premature, meaning the same cutting out that was blamed and caused the BMS replacement was actually some other issue. Harlan pointed out it could be something as simple as signal noise or interference on the motor positioning and motor thermistor wires, which in my case makes a lot of sense as they are packed in with 4 anderson Y-cables for the additional onboard chargers. i'm going to try to reroute them and shield them from anything else. I'm willing to try anything at this point.
ColoPaul, expevride, monarchhonda, mehve, protomech, rotoiti, trikester, RickSteeb - just to verify, all of you have had a cut out that only a key off/on would fix, correct?
1) was it raining, or had the bike recently gotten wet?
2) how many miles were on the bike when it first occurred?
3) how many total times has it happened?
4) have you only gone to twist the throttle and no power, or have you been riding, heard a "clunk" and have it cut off?
5) has anyone had the bike try to go backwards when twisting the throttle?
6) have you ever had to unplug and replug for any reason the wiring harness going to the motor or move it's routing for any reason?
7) Do any of you frequently switch between sport and Eco mode?
ok I'll begin:
1) first two times it occured it was raining and wouldn't go after pulling off and waiting to get out of a bad storm
2) first time 2200 miles, second time 3500 miles
3) only twice in the first 4000 miles, here and there up to 6000 miles, now unfortunately it is every day :(
4) I have heard a 'clunk' 5 or 6 times, most of the time there is just no throttle response at all and i don't hear the motor "energizing" sound. When I cycle the key and hear that noise, I know when I twist the throttle it will go that time.
5) The bike has tried to go backwards very slowly when twisting the throttle 3 times <--- first time it freaked me out!
6) Yes I have when routing the Y-cables for the chargers, that's why I mention this to see if anyone else did this too
7) Yes, I used to switch almost eery time i would brake then back again to accelerate
ok who's next? feel free Harlan or anyone else to ask any other questions that might be relevant.
Thanks guys! Let's see if we can figure this out!
-
1) was it raining, or had the bike recently gotten wet?
2) how many miles were on the bike when it first occurred?
3) how many total times has it happened?
4) have you only gone to twist the throttle and no power, or have you been riding, heard a "clunk" and have it cut off?
5) has anyone had the bike try to go backwards when twisting the throttle?
6) have you ever had to unplug and replug for any reason the wiring harness going to the motor or move it's routing for any reason?
7) Do any of you frequently switch between sport and Eco mode?
1) Nope.
2) 1800
3) Went from a two glitches on day 1 to couldn't-ride-it by day #4
4) yes, that's the 'glitch'
5, 6, 7) no
-
After my MBB was replaced on the 2012 and the main power solenoid on the 2010 I haven't had any more problems with either bike. Conditions under which the cut-outs occurred were normal every day type. No bad weather involved.
Because my 2010 DS was one of the first ones shipped it had an inadequate main solenoid relay. Zero had quickly upgraded those before they shipped many bikes that year. Unfortunately, they didn't do a recall so I had to experience mine failing before getting it replaced. :(
Trikester
-
1) was it raining, or had the bike recently gotten wet?
2) how many miles were on the bike when it first occurred?
3) how many total times has it happened?
4) have you only gone to twist the throttle and no power, or have you been riding, heard a "clunk" and have it cut off?
5) has anyone had the bike try to go backwards when twisting the throttle?
6) have you ever had to unplug and replug for any reason the wiring harness going to the motor or move it's routing for any reason?
7) Do any of you frequently switch between sport and Eco mode?
1) No, bike was bone dry first two times.
2) Once at 1500, once at 3700, many at 4000+
3) Probably 50+
4) Both, though the former is more frequent
5) I *think* this has happened to me once, slight backwards torque when the throttle was opened.
6) I stay away from the HV wires.
7) Yes
-
5) I *think* this has happened to me once, slight backwards torque when the throttle was opened.
Yes that is it.
I was hopeful that all of us that had this issue had something in common like too many eco regen switches, or rain or something. Trikester i think the MBB issue you had is different than the one ColoPaul, Protomech, myself and perhaps some others are experiencing. Glad you got it fixed though! On both your bikes!
Perhaps one common trend I see so far is it looks like there is something that requires wear or friction or use before it shows itself. It looks like it takes 1500 to 2000 miles to even appear at all, then once what ever it is appears it starts getting more and more frequent.
Yesterday after talking to Harlan I moved the connection plug for the motor sensors wires as far away from the motor itself as possible and almost hanging out the left side of the bike a little, and at least since yesterday it hasn't cut out yet, could be coincidence as it's only been 25 miles or so, yet thats further than i've been able to go for the past 3 weeks without numerous losses of power, so I'm crossing my fingers this continues.
-
I hope it turns out to have been the problem and therefore an easy fix.
I don't have nearly as many miles on my bikes, as you guys do, because of mostly dirt riding, no daily commute, and having bought a second ZERO. When I started riding the 2012 I quit putting miles on the 2010. Hopefully by the time I get to the mileage where you guys started having the problem there will be a known cause and solution.
I think you are correct in my 2010 MBB problem being different than the MBB problems others are having.
Trikester
-
Ok, possibly great news, but I dont want to jump the gun and have everyone go moving their sensor harness yet, but I just went on another 30 mile ride this morning and the bike has never run so good. This is the first time since getting the motor to controller recalibrated that i haven't felt any roughness from the motor. Not only not a single cut out, but it felt more powerful and I barely used 2 bars of battery. Not sure about the battery using less but unless something is funky with the battery display today it is definitely going further on less energy! The motor ran so smooth and didn't have any vibration at all!!! i'm going to do a lot more riding today and tomorrow and cross my fingers on this one. Hopefully its not just coincidence, but I thought I should post right away to let everyone know.
Edit as of 9 PM Saturday: Another 25 miles down without a cut out. I think i felt a small motor vibration for just a brief second and then it went away and never returned. The jury's not in on this yet, but whether it is the placement of the connection or just moving the wires around to help a loose connection im thinking this helped for sure.
-
Hello Mehive. You might try being more positive when opening the throttle. I think the stalling issue when at a stop has to do with the throttle. It takes more movement of the throttle to get the bike rolling in Eco mode than is true for most IC motorcycles. Try giving the throttle a positive turn when taking off from a stop in that mode and see if that helps.
Hi!
When you say "positive", does that mean roll throttle forward to make sure it's all the way closed before rolling it back to accelerate? I will certainly try it! I'm almost hoping for a "by design" reverse throttle (that can be consistently engaged when needed), rather an inadvertent one. My driveway slopes down and it's not until I'm on the incline when I see whether there's room between the two cars parked there and was on tip-toe on a slope, wishing I could go back up to the top of the driveway to get out of the heat...
I have also noticed that the motor is "louder" now than it had been. And would growl a couple of times if I turn it on before I'm ready to ride (getting gloves on), as if my Zero is saying "let's go already!" That is normal, I hope?
I am not worried, just wondering. You gentlemen seem like really calm and collected folk, and I am very encouraged by it.
+ m
-
Mehive did your bike fall over to the right side => throttle?
I also had a defect throttle and your loss of power reminds me to mine.
I have the feeling the throttle is not very valuable.
Yesterday I had a discussion with a Quantya dealer, he is testing different throttles.
Maybe I will pick up one if his results are positive.
The bike fell to the left, thankfully. But my left mirror is now loose and I don't quite see a way to tighten in. I've started taking the highway and the wind just about folds the mirror so I see my stomach instead of behind me. (I'll be checking the manual in a bit).
+ m
-
I have not had to do the key-of-on reboot while on the road. But the first time the no-throttle-response incident, I thought I accidentally hit the throttle cut-off switch (so I toggled that).
1) was it raining, or had the bike recently gotten wet?
I have ridden in the rain a few times between the 250-500 odometer reading, but have only noticed the delayed throttle response starting around 600.
2) how many miles were on the bike when it first occurred?
I don't recall 100%, but it started around 600+ (bike now has about 985)
3) how many total times has it happened?
perhaps 10 times... happens at any one stop during a ride
4) have you only gone to twist the throttle and no power, or have you been riding, heard a "clunk" and have it cut off?
Twist/no-power
5) has anyone had the bike try to go backwards when twisting the throttle?
No. Although this would be neat if it happens when expected.
6) have you ever had to unplug and replug for any reason the wiring harness going to the motor or move it's routing for any reason?
No.
7) Do any of you frequently switch between sport and Eco mode?
Only occasionally, when I go on the highway (which is infrequent at this time)
-
Hello Mehive. You might try being more positive when opening the throttle. I think the stalling issue when at a stop has to do with the throttle. It takes more movement of the throttle to get the bike rolling in Eco mode than is true for most IC motorcycles. Try giving the throttle a positive turn when taking off from a stop in that mode and see if that helps.
Hi!
When you say "positive", does that mean roll throttle forward to make sure it's all the way closed before rolling it back to accelerate? I will certainly try it! I'm almost hoping for a "by design" reverse throttle (that can be consistently engaged when needed), rather an inadvertent one. My driveway slopes down and it's not until I'm on the incline when I see whether there's room between the two cars parked there and was on tip-toe on a slope, wishing I could go back up to the top of the driveway to get out of the heat...
I have also noticed that the motor is "louder" now than it had been. And would growl a couple of times if I turn it on before I'm ready to ride (getting gloves on), as if my Zero is saying "let's go already!" That is normal, I hope?
I am not worried, just wondering. You gentlemen seem like really calm and collected folk, and I am very encouraged by it.
+ m
What I was trying to say was to make sure that the throttle was fully closed when coming to a stop and to open it more quickly and further when taking off after stopping, especially when in "Eco" mode.
-
The bike fell to the left, thankfully. But my left mirror is now loose and I don't quite see a way to tighten in. I've started taking the highway and the wind just about folds the mirror so I see my stomach instead of behind me. (I'll be checking the manual in a bit).
+ m
There's a special tool that came with the bike for tightening up the mirrors - hopefully your dealer gave it to you!
I have another question - when the 'glitch' happens to you - do you have to turn the key off/on again for the bike to work? I re-read an earlier post of yours and it appears that you do not have to do that. I think that most of the 'glitch' reports on this thread have "key off/on" in common.
-
Hey, I didn't get that mirror tool or any other tools with my 2012 DS >:(
I wonder how many other tools were supposed to come with the bike? Of course with no place on the bike to carry tools (or even registration) I guess it doesn't matter. :(
I placed a little lexan "drybox", for tools, right behind the seat on the 2012 and right under the seat (stuck to it) on the 2010.
Trikester
-
Ok, possibly great news, but I dont want to jump the gun and have everyone go moving their sensor harness yet, but I just went on another 30 mile ride this morning and the bike has never run so good. This is the first time since getting the motor to controller recalibrated that i haven't felt any roughness from the motor. Not only not a single cut out, but it felt more powerful and I barely used 2 bars of battery. Not sure about the battery using less but unless something is funky with the battery display today it is definitely going further on less energy! The motor ran so smooth and didn't have any vibration at all!!! i'm going to do a lot more riding today and tomorrow and cross my fingers on this one. Hopefully its not just coincidence, but I thought I should post right away to let everyone know.
Offthegrid,
Any update?
-
Offthegrid,
Any update?
It was not a full fix, I am somewhat convinced it has helped, but in the last 2 days i have had more vibration and random "motor noise". It has not cut out while riding, but has "stalled" when sitting still for too long in traffic. The light will turn green after a few minutes, I go to twist the throttle and nothing. This was not the problem I was used to before however. i had acceleration cutouts before the retiming from low speed. High speed vibrations and cut outs after, and now after moving the harness, no moving cutouts at low or high speed, just stalling when sitting and only after an extended period.
I am convinced this has something to do with motor timing to the controller and possible interference into the sensor wires. I wish i had the darn wire here and the software on my computer here to try different recalibrations at different motor temperatures. Sylvie from the Zero Strategy department contacted me and my appointment to talk to Richard Walker is tomorrow. I will be certain to talk to him about this.
Before I speak with him, how many of you would be willing to spend a little money to be able to do diagnostic work, error code checking and recalibrations on your own bike from home? Please speak up if you would like to do this so i can let him know there is interest. Also let me know how far you are from the closest Zero dealer.
-
I inquired about purchasing a diagnostic kit from Zero and was rebuffed.
My nearest dealer is ~180 miles away.
-
The light will turn green after a few minutes, I go to twist the throttle and nothing.
This is what mehve is reporting. Do you have to do the key on/off thing to recover, or do you just twist the throttle again?
Is there any error codes on the display or BMS when this occurs?
-
Paid careful attention to how I'm twisting the throttle the last couple of days. Broke the 1000mi mark over the weekend (yay!)
The only delay on the ride today was from being stopped on a slight incline. About a one second delay before moving forward.
But I have not had a need to turn the key switch off and back on. I just made sure, as what Richard suggested, that the throttle was completely closed before twisting back (and faster). When I experienced a delay, I minded that, and pulling back quicker got the bike rolling again. The lack of vibration makes it harder to tell if I have the throttle partly open (as I recall on an ICE bike, there is always a slight purr before the rumble even at the slightest pull) -- I'm not complaining, mind you. :)
Thanks again, guys!
As for the tool, I'm hoping it's with my spare key in a drawer somewhere. I vaguely recall seeing a black allen-wrench-looking thing through the haze of giddy when I bought my Zero.
-
This thread shows the only tool I was given when I purchased my 2012 Zero S. It was the mirror adjustment tool and a set of instructions:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2174.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2174.0)
-
Thanks, I'll ask Harlan (my dealer) about it.
-
The light will turn green after a few minutes, I go to twist the throttle and nothing.
This is what mehve is reporting. Do you have to do the key on/off thing to recover, or do you just twist the throttle again?
Is there any error codes on the display or BMS when this occurs?
It always requires a key off/on, I'm getting really good at waddling the bike with my legs up to 5-10 mph as i frantically switch the key back and forth hoping for the motor to energize. :o
-
This sounds too dangerous. I would get it to the dealer and ask them to get back to me when it was 100%. Even a false start at a stop sign can get you rear-ended. The throttle shouldn't require any special knowledge to work. It's starting to sound like a Chinese scooter.
-
Unfortunately my 2012 S ZF9 started having this motor stuttering and then acceleration cutoff this week as well. I just picked the bike up in May and have about 1200 miles on it all in dry weather. The cutoff has happened 3 times this week all doing 50-70mph (I ride SPORT mode only) with a steady throttle on the highway with one of those cutoffs in a tunnel with no place to go. The first time I pulled off and restarted. The second time I rebooted while moving. The third time, in the tunnel, I had to reboot twice. This doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.
Since I'm in the Bay Area I wouldn't mind some of that great customer service that Richard received. Ironically, I'm scheduled to speak to the CEO tomorrow.
-
Unfortunately my 2012 S ZF9 started having this motor stuttering and then acceleration cutoff this week as well. I just picked the bike up in May and have about 1200 miles on it all in dry weather. The cutoff has happened 3 times this week all doing 50-70mph (I ride SPORT mode only) with a steady throttle on the highway with one of those cutoffs in a tunnel with no place to go. The first time I pulled off and restarted. The second time I rebooted while moving. The third time, in the tunnel, I had to reboot twice. This doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.
Since I'm in the Bay Area I wouldn't mind some of that great customer service that Richard received. Ironically, I'm scheduled to speak to the CEO tomorrow.
Ok, this makes about 10 of us now, and jpaulus you might be the first in the Bay Area. You could do the rest of us a great service by getting your bike to Zero for diagnostics ASAP. Protomech is scheduled to be shipping his bike back soon in a crate if it hasn't happened already, but it might be a week or more before they receive it.
I have a feeling if matt, luke and ryan can take a look at your bike, they can soon tell the rest of us what to do to prevent shipping it back to them. I'm hoping for a simple fix like reprogramming the sevcon timing to the motor when the motor is hot, or possibly shielding the sensor wires from any stray magnetic fields it might be picking up. I think John at moto energy said they are just 2.5 volt sine and cosine wave signals and it's possible if they are in the exact right coil close to other wires they might somehow be being distorted in certain high amp draw conditions from the motor.
If it's anything like my issues, the motor and controller communicate perfectly 99% of the time, but 1% of the time the controller gets confused on where the motor is and has it work against itself and it takes rolling the bike front and back while rebooting to get it to pick up the motor sensors correctly. Please call them and try to get it in there as soon as convienent to you.
With an issue as potentially serious as this i would guess the boss would pay them overtime to work through the weekend if necessary to figure this one out as more and more bikes hitting over 1000 mile mark are all developing the same issue and the sooner they can develop a "fix' the higher chance of avoiding an inexperienced rider having this issue appear for the first time in traffic and not being prepared to get out of traffic safely. Please let us know right away when you take it in. Thanks!
On a lighter note, you will enjoy your talk with Mr. Walker. He is a great guy!
-
Offthegrid, I was thinking if you’re moving the sensor cables and this had some effect, you might need some kind of filter for the noise induced on the lines. I would be guessing that it would most likely be a RF (radio frequency) noise and not a magnetic one.
One simple remedy would be using a ferrite bead or core like you normally see on the back of computer monitors or sometimes on USB cables. Here is a Wiki link for an explanation.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_bead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_bead)
It is also possible that rapping a grounded wire around the cable can help. Computer cables evolved from using a shielding to a number of twists per inch (5-6). The question I would still have is why this is not showing up in the bike when new.
Obviously the best fix would be to have the manufacture address it.
-
So I had my call with the CEO today and he seemed quite interested in my Glitch. I was called shortly afterward by the warranty manager who set me up with an appt to get my bike checked out in the morning in SF along with a controller software update and an encoder sync.
It sounded like they do not yet know what the actual cause is but hopefully my bike can provide additional info.
-
Update, 3 weeks.
The new BMS board from Zero was supposed to be here. It's not. Total calls from Zero or my dealer over the last three weeks = 1. :(
I called my dealer and they said they have no word from Zero. They said they don't even have the BMS recall kits which they were supposed to have by July 23.
I called Zero and told them my story. The guy I talked to said they have had a hard time with building the BMS boards. He assured me that the new BMS board would fix the glitch, and then went on to describe protomech's original bms-corrosion-false-temp-failure issue. I told him I wasn't getting any error codes - just cutouts - he again assured me the new BMS board would do the trick. Afterwards I realized that several of us have had the glitch with the 'new' BMS board. I'm thinking Zero has another recall in it's future!
So I had my call with the CEO today and he seemed quite interested in my Glitch. I was called shortly afterward by the warranty manager who set me up with an appt to get my bike checked out in the morning in SF along with a controller software update and an encoder sync.
Interestingly, I got the email earlier this week from Sylvie; and my time to talk to the CEO is Monday. You can guess what I might have to say to him.
-
Offthegrid, I was thinking if you’re moving the sensor cables and this had some effect, you might need some kind of filter for the noise induced on the lines. I would be guessing that it would most likely be a RF (radio frequency) noise and not a magnetic one.
One simple remedy would be using a ferrite bead or core like you normally see on the back of computer monitors or sometimes on USB cables. Here is a Wiki link for an explanation.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_bead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_bead)
It is also possible that rapping a grounded wire around the cable can help. Computer cables evolved from using a shielding to a number of twists per inch (5-6). The question I would still have is why this is not showing up in the bike when new.
Obviously the best fix would be to have the manufacture address it.
Great suggestions Johnski, and I'm just as perplexed as you on why it seems to not show up right away. I have had another 3 days without any issues whatsoever and I've logged 3-400 miles since the last cutout. Just crossed 7000 miles yesterday. Before moving the harness I used to have multiple issues in a single 20 mile trip. But an interesting observation, perhaps totally unrelated, but it's been about 10 degrees cooler the past few days and the surface temp of the blacktop is probably 30 degrees cooler from the cloud cover. The only reason I mention this is because although we all think it has to do with mileage, perhaps it's because when all the new bikes had low mileage, it was also Feb, Mar, April and May and temps were cooler. Probably not related, but I figure communicating all the observations we see to each other and we might see a trend. Or maybe it's a combination of a few things all at the same time that cause it.
I wish I was at Zero today and could be there to see them working on jpaulus's bike. I'm crossing my fingers they figure it out by the end of the day and someone posts on the forum asap what the fix is.
-
I got one glitch in early May in the evening (temp likely in the high 70s), one glitch in early July (temp in the 100s), and frequent glitches now (temp in the 80s to 90s).
Aside from the single glitch in July, I had no other issues with the bike during the 1000 miles I put on it in July, temps very often over 100 degrees.
-
So my bike was serviced for this issue at a shop in Daly City today. They took diagnostics for Zero as they spoke to them on the phone, updated the software and resynced the encoder. On my 'test' drive it cutout about 5-7 additional times on the highway which turned out to be a one exit trip, an eventful one, back to the shop. The software update apparently didn't take. They did it again and the bike is seemingly riding fine now. Hopefully Zero got some good data.
Has anyone else had this same software update only to have the problem come back some time later? (My Vectrix used to have a very similar issue when the encoder got dusty and would need cleaned off.)
-
On my 'test' drive it cutout about 5-7 additional times on the highway which turned out to be a one exit trip, an eventful one, back to the shop. The software update apparently didn't take. They did it again and the bike is seemingly riding fine now. Hopefully Zero got some good data.
Keep us informed, is it still running fine? How many miles have you ridden so far? This sounds promising!! :) :) :) :)
-
So after my Glitch service today I rode to work on a highway ride of about 20 miles (reply #144) and I was Glitch free. After work I was testing once more, approaching the end of my highway commute when the Glitch returned, unfortunately. The bike is much better given where it was before but it does not appear to be cured.
To summarize, my first Glitch was less than a week ago and it got worse quickly, so much so that on the 30 mile trip to get it serviced I had to preemptively reboot it on the highway several times when the motor started pulsing which usually signals a cut out. On my test ride it cut out many times right in a row just before the software update that helped significantly.
I've informed Zero and the service dept of the local shop and we'll see what happens. I will have a chance to test it out some more tomorrow but after that I will be restricted to 4 wheels for a week. If the bike regresses as quickly as it did the last time then I should know relatively soon.
Without a fix to this problem this bike is just not safe.
-
I have a 2012 DS and it recently quit after a very strong "shudder" from the motor. I brought it in for the recall and they did the update and gumpucky on the connectors, 1 day later, it shuddered and shut off again, I turned the key off then on and I made it home ( limping) the service rep says he will contact Zero and see what they can do. Meanwhile it really sucks to not be able to trust your transportation, my guess is something must be replaced and not just "remapped, rebooted, or updated" also it never showed a code of any kind or any warning lights. Hopefully this will be resolved quickly as to not have a large amount of people inconvenienced and tarnish the electric bikes reputation.
-
my guess is something must be replaced and not just "remapped, rebooted, or updated" also it never showed a code of any kind or any warning lights. Hopefully this will be resolved quickly as to not have a large amount of people inconvenienced and tarnish the electric bikes reputation.
Well put. I couldn't agree more.
-
Meanwhile it really sucks to not be able to trust your transportation, my guess is something must be replaced and not just "remapped, rebooted, or updated" also it never showed a code of any kind or any warning lights.
If there is such a part, it would be the controller. I've been carefully noting when and where my cut outs occur and it's never when the bike is 'cold" or just going. Always a few miles in, and usually after some higher speeds. i'm thinking the controller might be a little undersized for spirited riders on a continuous basis. Perhaps continued thermal limitation has caused stress inside the controller. The Gen4 size4 is only good for 140 continuous amps. At 66 volts thats 9000 watts. That's not enough to maintain 70 mph. For me at least I believe the controller is constantly under stress and working to it's max capability.
At approximately the same width 170mm vs 168mm there is a size 6 gen 4 sevcon controller, just a little longer and with a few mounting adapters can easily fit. It can handle 660 boost amps (10 sec) versus the 420 for the size 4. Significant difference!!!!
Not that the motor might ever demand that much, but at least it's on tap and the controller has more thermal ability to remain happy. I know the guys at zero are working hard trying to figure this out for all of us, but I'm would be wiling to spend the money on a controller that would be less stressed and see if 2000 miles later it's still trouble free (I should do that in less than 30 days at the rate I ride) and if so see if Zero could get credit for the faulty (if it turns out to fix it) size 4 sevcon and then credit us back all but the difference in the size 4 to 6 upgrade to those who wish to do it, since it shouldn't cost them anything if they get credit from Sevcon. About $200 i think and well worth the cost if it leads to long term trouble free riding.
I hate throwing parts at something trying to do a diagnosos, but due to the dangerous severity of this issue, and the number of bikes with growing mileage, I think we need to trying something ASAP, and see what works. If I was playing poker, I'd bet a fair amount on an upgraded controller if that was what I was delt, but wouldn't necessarily go "all in" just yet.
-
Today's test (the day after the 'fix') was 30 miles of mainly highway riding. The mostly throbbing motor had anemic acceleration and it cut out 4 times. The fix was very temporary.
I don't expect perfection on bleeding edge tech but at this point I'm going to expect excellent communication from the folks at Zero as we proceed toward a solution.
-
I just put a deposit on a new 2012 S ZF 6 -- then I ciscovred this forum and discussion of the "glitch.". You have all got me a little worried that I am buying into a headache, especially since my dealer is a an hour and a half away and I don't own a truck to haul my bike around.
Anyone have a sense of the percentage of 2012 Zeros that suffer from this problem? Presumably the new bikes won't have the circuit board weatherproofing problem.
Seriously, do you think I can stuff one of these bikes in the backf a Prius if I have to get it back to the dealer several times? I measured the Prius - believe it or not, it's long enough with the seats down. Shouldn't be a problem putting an electric bike on its side - no carbeurator float or fluids to leak. How easy is it to unbolt the handlebars?
Thank you for sharing your experience - looking forward to hearing how it gets resolved. Meanwhile, I think I will sign up for the roadside assistance plan with my insurance!
-
I won't buy a bike until I see the problem traced sown and a solution... Hope they have it fixed in the upcoming models... I had a cutout problem on my 2011 DS.. I found it easily.. It was the blue squarish sensor that wraps one of the leads.. I removed all the trim so I could poke it while riding. Sure enough just touching it messed the bike up so badly that I stopped to deal with it. If it moves around at all it WILL still cause a cuttout.. I finally managed to fix it tight against something, zip tie it securely and now It never cuts out. Maybe they kept this sensor on the 2012 models?
-
I won't buy a bike until I see the problem traced sown and a solution... Hope they have it fixed in the upcoming models... I had a cutout problem on my 2011 DS.. I found it easily.. It was the blue squarish sensor that wraps one of the leads.. I removed all the trim so I could poke it while riding. Sure enough just touching it messed the bike up so badly that I stopped to deal with it. If it moves around at all it WILL still cause a cuttout.. I finally managed to fix it tight against something, zip tie it securely and now It never cuts out. Maybe they kept this sensor on the 2012 models?
Hi Spires.
Where is that sensor located and any idea what it does? Did the cut outs happen in summer or winter temperatures?
I had cut outs on my 2010 and we tried several fixes to no avail. Noow want to understand in case 2011 has them.
-
kcoplan. I believe it would fit in the Prius. I have a 2012 Prius and I can put a 26-in bike in the back and close the hatch, if I lower the seat and handlebars, so yes you could get it in. The trouble though is the weight. I think you would probably scratch either your car or the bike or possibly hurt yourself. My e-bicycle weighs like 60 lbs. and that was awkward enough. I wouldn't try it with a Zero. I'd rent a U-haul trailer made for motorcycles and take it in that way. What's another couple hundred dollars? Actually, I wouldn't buy a Zero if my dealer was so far away unless I was already set up with a way to haul motorcycles, which I'm not. My Zero dealer is under 4 miles away, downhill at that, but even before I took it in I would call Ed at af1 who would come and pick it up for me, and deliver it back to my house when it was fixed if I asked him to. He lives a couple blocks away. Naturally, I'm the one on the forum who has never had a single problem with the Zero (2011 S) but who would be the least inconvenienced if I did. Knock on wood.
-
Hi Spires.
Where is that sensor located and any idea what it does? Did the cut outs happen in summer or winter temperatures?
I had cut outs on my 2010 and we tried several fixes to no avail. Noow want to understand in case 2011 has them.
It's a square, blue in color sensor.. I believe it senses current. They told me what it was exactly but I can't remember.. Mine was cutting into the wire that goes from the motor to the controller. It's down at the bottom of the bike between the motor and the controller on the 2011 models. The temp outside or within the bike never had any effect on it. It was either picking up some other field or the layout on that wire is just too flakey.. They sent me a new one in case I needed to swap it out but before I did, I slid it down the cable a ways, wrapped the cut part in electrical tape. Then attached it to part of the plate between the controller and where the charger would sit. It cannot move at all and it completely solved my cutting out. I can torture that bike something fierce in the dirt and no issues at all..
-
Thanks for the advice DKW. Well, seems like I am already committed to buying the bike - just hope that they figure out the problem with Jpaulus' bike before I rack up enough miles to have the "glitch" myself.
Renting a van twice every time I need repair service could get expensive quickly. Our Prius is already pretty scratched up from bicycles and other gear, so I am not worried about that. I was thinking two or three people might be able to lay a Zero down gently on a piece of plywood on 2x4s, and lift and slide to get the weight into the car.
Another option might be one of those trailer hitch tow-dollies - my son's car has a trailer hitch. Has anyone tried towing a Zero with one of these? Would it damage the motor or the belt to spin the rear wheel 60 miles with the bike turned off? I wonder if I could get a hitch put on our Prius - they are not meant to tow, but this would be very light duty towing . . .
-
I have hauled my GPR-S around in my daughter's Subaru station wagon a few times. What I do is to place a plastic tarp inside the car to protect its finish. Then I get some large pieces of cardboard and lay that down. The cardboard will protect the bike's finish and allow you to slide the bike in and out of the car easily, as it slides over the plastic tarp like it was greased. Two people can lever the bike into the cargo area, but it is a lot easier with three people.
-
Zero will eventually fix the glitch problem, I have 95% confidence in them. (The other 5% is that they don't / cannot fix it, and it sinks them as a company).
The big thing I worry about is that this seems to worsen with age, and some owners might not discover it until after the 2 year warranty runs out.
-
Zero will eventually fix the glitch problem, I have 95% confidence in them. (The other 5% is that they don't / cannot fix it, and it sinks them as a company).
The big thing I worry about is that this seems to worsen with age, and some owners might not discover it until after the 2 year warranty runs out.
I think something like this they will fix the issue on all the bikes, regardless of how long it's been. I had a car 12 years old and I got a notice to have my O-rings on my fuel injectors replaced on the car for free at the dealer because it could cause a fire from leaking gasoline. Total 3 cars had fires out of 60,000+ sold. And no one was ever hurt.
With this potentially causing an accident from a rider not being able to get out of the way, and already a lot more than 3 bikes that have it and it seems another couple each week as they start to get more mileage on them, I'm positive they will figure out what the issue is and have all the bikes get the "fix" whether they have symptoms or not.
Because of the the widespread knowledge from the CEO through the whole company, if they didn't issue a recall and someone got killed 6 months from now from a first time occurance happening pulling out into rush hour and the bike cutting off, there's no way any company could be relieved of negligence.
Legally they have to tell everyone that knowingly has the issue, not to ride the bike anymore until they can figure out what it is and fix it. Zero told me that almost a month ago and I understand completely why. There have been some crazy hairy situations I've been in when it cuts out, even though I have grown to always expect it. Last night when it cut out and the trouble is resetting the key cuts out the back light, and a driver came rushing up on me and didn't see me till the last second when the rear light came on and I flashed my back light as fast as I could. There was no shoulder to pull off on for another 100-200 feet. I was literally out of options. i say that as the bike operated flawless again for another 150-200 miles, and then in the period of an hour does it to me 30 times. i just can't figure it out.
But Protomech because of the potential for severy innjury from this one I can guarantee a recall, so the 2 year warranty won't matter to those who don't ride a lot. The wording will be the same or similar as the BMS recall which was: "SUDDEN LOSS OF POWER CAN LEAD TO A CRASH AND POTENTIAL INJURY OR DEATH TO THE RIDER." which of course is exactly what this is. Sorry for the all caps, that was just a cut and paste from the nhtsa page for the zero bms recall.
Speaking of, I believe the BMS getting wet was probably not the cause or only cause of the earlier cutouts. It was the same issue we all still trying to figure out now. But to be safe and do the right thing they issued the recall anyway. Do we know of anyone who had cut outs, had the BMS replaced and then never had a cut out again???
I'm hoping we're less than a week away from getting to the bottom of this one. Jpaulus, do they have your bike this week to look at further? Protomech is yours on the way? ColoPaul? what's the update at your dealer? Are they finally sending it back to Zero too? I might try a controller swap next just to see. At this point trying anything is better than nothing.
-
My bike was loaded on a truck Friday .. probably will arrive at Zero HQ sometime late this week.
-
I had my talk with Mr. Walker (Zero CEO) today. Of course I brought up my service experience and the 'glitch'.
I have good news to report:
Mr Walker mentioned he had a meeting with his engineering team this morning (8/13) emphasizing the importance of getting to the bottom of the issue. He said they have a user's bike there (is it jpaulus's?) and they are investigating. Clearly protomech's bike is also on the way.
For my particular situation, my dealer reported they have the BMS board in, and Mr. Walker had someone at Zero call me and assure me that they will have the dealer not only swap the BMS board, but upgrade the motor controller SW and recalibrate the bike - and that if the 'glitch' continues to let them know asap.
I hope to be back on the road this week! After riding my 630 pound BMW around for a month I wonder what shifting back to the Zero will be like? ;)
-
I've been contacted by Zero to arrange shipment of my bike back to the factory "to get it fixed": a welcomely optimistic point of view. My bike exibits the problem easily so hopefully it will be useful to them.
-
Mr Walker mentioned he had a meeting with his engineering team this morning (8/13) emphasizing the importance of getting to the bottom of the issue. He said they have a user's bike there (is it jpaulus's?) and they are investigating. Clearly protomech's bike is also on the way.
Wait, jpaulus's isn't there yet, right? Who's bike do they have that has the "glitch". Anyone from this forum?
I just crossed 7500 miles yesterday and the good news is from 6000 miles it doesn't seem to be progressing. Although it still does it intermittedly, I feel it occurs less since I moved the harness, but then again, perhaps it's wishful thinking. Hollywood electrics has successfully performed a sevcon upgrade to the size 6. 660 boost amps versus 420 that we all have now.
I feel the controller being overloaded is part of the reliability issue, especially for those of us with a lot of miles who often go full throttle away from every stoplight and do a lot of highway riding at the bikes max speed. I'm hoping within a week I can report if this fixes it or not. If it does, than it is the controller that is bad and perhaps took many thermal expansions and contractions to exhibit problems inside. if not, well, I'll have bike that accelerates a little better before it cuts out, lol.
Hopefully Zero figures something before next week as well. I just wish they would communicate with all of us better instead of having us try to perform fixes on our own because it's too dangerous to not do anything and just keep waiting and not hearing anything from them. The fact they sent Jpaulus's bike out with a recalibration makes me think they're not sure what it is yet. One way or the other we're gonna get to the bottom of this soon.
-
My bike is to be picked up tomorrow and taken back to the factory which isn't that far away. I'm told that there are two known solutions to this problem and the service done to my bike at a local shop apparently didn't solve it for my bike. I was told that "the issue is tied to the controller and motor synchronization."
-
All 3 of my e-bikes shut off if I try to climb a hill that is too steep. This is a controller function (3 different motors and 3 different controllers with my bikes) where the volts increase too much and the controller shuts down to prevent heat damage. After a few seconds you can reboot. It is a very common problem in the electric bike world.
-
All 3 of my e-bikes shut off if I try to climb a hill that is too steep. This is a controller function (3 different motors and 3 different controllers with my bikes) where the volts increase too much and the controller shuts down to prevent heat damage. After a few seconds you can reboot. It is a very common problem in the electric bike world.
But it's unacceptable in the motorcycle world.
-
Today, for the first time and at 2010 miles, I was "hit by the glitch". I was riding on level ground at 45 mph, with light throttle, in Sport mode, in sunny and dry 55 degree weather, I was still on the first bar of the fuel gauge and there was no source of electrical interference visible anywhere in the vicinity. The motor suddenly started vibrating like it was out of sync and the power dropped about in half but did not cut out completely. I managed to get off the roadway at an intersecting driveway, turned the ignition off and then back on and was able to continue on my way for another 20 miles, which included some freeway travel, without any more problems.
My bike is completely bone-stock, I follow all of the instructions in the owner's manual, the motor has never been anywhere near getting too hot and when freeway riding I usually stick to around 60 mph. I have never ridden in the rain and high temperatures around here are typically in the 60's. I doubt you could find anyone riding their 2012 Zero S any easier than me, plus I just had the recall performed on the BMS board.
My guess is that a sensor or a transistor is failing somewhere. I had a similar problem with a 1983 Kawasaki GPz 305. Kawasaki located the ignition unit black box directly on top of the cylinder head and the heat apparently cooked a thermistor in the device (according to my electrical analysis). I bought a new one for $150 (a lot of money in those days) and it too failed after another 8K miles for the same reason. I have also had all sorts of problems with motorcycle voltage regulators failing. Plus, both of my GPR-S bikes expired when transistors in their BMS boards melted. Motorcycles are really tough on electrical components, especially when they are not specifically designed for use in the type of environment experienced by a motorcycle. Mil-spec components would likely work really well, but then who can afford that stuff other than the government buying them with our taxes? ::)
-
Richard, sounds like you hit the pre-glitch just before it cuts out entirely. I too have gotten them in the 45-55mph range and I don't think I've had my bike to full speed let alone for an extended period of time. Your experience (and weather) sounds like mine.
-
Richard, sounds like you hit the pre-glitch just before it cuts out entirely. I too have gotten them in the 45-55mph range and I don't think I've had my bike to full speed let alone for an extended period of time. Your experience (and weather) sounds like mine.
Yes. Sounds exactly like the roughness I experienced. Very often if I stopped the bike after experiencing the roughness it would cut out.
-
Richard that's exactly it. And just like clock work near the 2000 mile odometer mark like everyone else itseems. To protect yourself and be safe from here on out, ride fast enough that you are going faster than anyone who might be behind you so if you cut out, you have a buffer to avoid getting bumped from the back. That's the biggest thing I learned is to have plenty of space behind you to buy yourself time to reset the key. Although it sounds like you are a pro already at dealing with cut outs from the GPRS days, lol.
Mine actually didn't hit till almost 3500 miles. Which reminds me, I wanted to ask, is there anyone on the forum here with over 2-3000 miles on a 2012 that doesn't have the "glitch"? I know some of the prototypes from last year that zero has with almost 25k miles don't have it, im just curious if any since the spring 2012 production run are glitch free.
-
3 hour roundtrip to get my bike back from the dealer. On the plus side - I put 10 miles on it and the glitch seems to be gone. :) On the minus side - my bike picked up 4 ~1" scratches in the various plastic panels. :( To give the dealer credit - they offered to get replacements (3 new plastic panels). I told them it wasn't worth it, I would probably eventually ding up the plastic myself, it was just disappointing as I had been really careful to keep it showroom new up to this point.
Here is the text written by the tech: "Recreated complaint. [...] replaced bms and mbb and still has not fixed the problem. Performed dcf update and calsincos update unit is now functioning"
Well, I'm back on the road! Yay! Fingers crossed this is my last post in this wretched thread. :P
-
ColoPaul! This sounds awesome! Please try to rack up a few hundred miles over the next day or two and let us know if it is still error free. I am hoping for the best.
The only thing that makes me wonder is....
1) Why did the bike run great for 2k miles and then have trouble? Did the calibration software change when the odometer hit 2,000? Or did something else change.
Regardless if it really did fix it, I'd love to try it on all the other bikes too.
I had my controller recalibrated a few weeks ago, and it seemed to fix it too, until I took a long highway trip and then it was worse.
Have you taken a long highway ride yet? How many miles since the "fix"? Keep us updated daily please, Thanks ColoPaul.
-
But is Zero saying nothing about this Glitch???
I am about to pass the 1000miles mark, and so far nothing (on a 2012 Zero S ZF6). But it seems to be happening to everybody, so I am worried now.
I can't believe that Zero hasn't already figured out what it was, and taken care of the issue!!!
-
I was reading Zero vs. ICE post Colopaul wrote:
“Funny, since they did all the work on my ZF6; my 'gas gauge' is now clearly showing 50% more miles per bar. It's almost as if when they installed the new BMS they forget to tell it was on a ZF6 and it thinks it's a ZF9. Another call to the dealer...â€
My initial thought was that it would be a wonderful side effect if offthegrids controller upgraded also added some more efficiency by the controller being able to handle more amps.
I couldn’t find any info to back this up. It does look like the controller has built in heat protection. It should be mounted with heat sinking grease. There are options that could be added to the controller if they will fit (like a heat sink).
If the controller is faulting there should be a LED that will blink a code that you will find in this reference manual.
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/Manuals/Gen4_Product_Manual_V3.0.pdf (http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/Manuals/Gen4_Product_Manual_V3.0.pdf)
Here are the bikes drive train specs. Also has some nice photos of some components.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/powertrains/powertrains-sales-sheets.pdf (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/powertrains/powertrains-sales-sheets.pdf)
-
Great info Johnski! I read the whole thing and it looks like I need that external LED to display on the dash or somewhere that can more easily be seen. Or a programmer to pull all the codes the controller has stored.
The other night i got caught in the rain bad and the bike cut out, but this time it displayed a code on the dash. i'm pretty sure it flashed once then twice, which would be a charging connected error. But obviously the bike wasn't plugged in while riding. if I came to a stop while the code flashed, the bike would cut out and take a half hour of cycling the key to get it to boot up, and if i took off it was fine, but if i stopped completely it would cut out and leave me stranded again. So I learned quickly how to carefully run the red lights and stop signs and get home without ever letting the wheels stop spinning. This seems like it is a seperate issue from the controller failure. Perhaps BMS related? But I have the new updated waterproof board installed so not sure.
Any updates from anyone else?
-
There have been some crazy hairy situations I've been in when it cuts out, even though I have grown to always expect it. Last night when it cut out and the trouble is resetting the key cuts out the back light, and a driver came rushing up on me and didn't see me till the last second when the rear light came on and I flashed my back light as fast as I could. There was no shoulder to pull off on for another 100-200 feet. I was literally out of options.
...ride fast enough that you are going faster than anyone who might be behind you so if you cut out, you have a buffer to avoid getting bumped from the back.
So I learned quickly how to carefully run the red lights and stop signs and get home without ever letting the wheels stop spinning.
offthegrid, I enjoy your posts but you make me fear for your life. :o
-
I have a Zero S ZF9 I purchased 5 months ago. I have 2773 miles on it and I've had no glitches. I am curious what firmware version different owners have on their bikes.
On boot up, mine shows u7 2011 11.
Keith
-
Hi Keith_Greensboro_NC,
Software version will be not so easy, we have a bunch of SW in that bike.
The SevCon Controller has a firmware that we hopefully would not have to update. But Zero makes “dcf†files this are the parameter inside the SevCon Controller. But there will be no display of a version if you change the dcf-paramter.
The BMS Board has a firmware, the MBB has a firmware.
I am not sure but the “u7 2011 11†might be the firmware of the dash board.
Has someone more information about it?
-
Thanks BSDTHw for the insight. What is the MBB?
-
Mine actually didn't hit till almost 3500 miles. Which reminds me, I wanted to ask, is there anyone on the forum here with over 2-3000 miles on a 2012 that doesn't have the "glitch"? I know some of the prototypes from last year that zero has with almost 25k miles don't have it, im just curious if any since the spring 2012 production run are glitch free.
Offthegrid,
I have got 1.700 miles on my ZF9 and there are no symptoms of the glitch so far -I'm getting VERY nervous after reading everybody's comments though >:(
After reading your "experiences" I also suggest you to be very careful and eventually stop riding your bike.
-
Somebody wrote about the "main bike board" MBB I am not sure, if the BMS and the MBB the same.
beneath the "Tank" there is a box with two sockets, where most cables go in and out. It could possible be a controller housing (MBB), but maybe someone here can give more information.
The only thing I am a bit deeper in is the SevCon Controller.
-
Looking at my 2012 S Owners Manual, the BMS is inside the power pack which makes sense because the BMS 4 status LEDs are on the front of the box. The 420 Amp motor controller has an aluminum heat sink attached and it is below the seat facing the rear wheel. The MBB is mentioned in the fuse description and it says Main Bike Board/Controller. So, I don't know if there are 2 items supplied by that fuse or 2 names for the 1 item.
I would like to talk with you more regarding your knowledge of the controller!
Keith
-
After reading your "experiences" I also suggest you to be very careful and eventually stop riding your bike.
Im waiting till they figure out what it is before I get it fixed. I haven't heard anything definite yet from zero. Despite it cutting out sometimes 10 times in a 5 mile freeway ride, i still enjoy riding it. Some days it only happens 10 times the whole day.
Getting ready to cross 8000 miles soon. Front tire still looks brand new. Amazing!
ColoPaul how many miles since the recalibration now? Do you remember if they got the motor very hot before doing the "calsincos" command while spinning the back tire? Mine wasn't and I went about 100 miles before the glitch returned, but I was too far to ride back to the dealer.
Protomech, Jpaulus? does Zero have your bikes yet? Any updates?
Till then, ride safe everyone! ---> really fast with plenty of room to coast to reboot! Speaking of this does anyone notice how effortly the bike coasts when it cuts out? I think we're so used to the brake regeneration when we let go of the throttle, that when we let go at 75 mph to reset the key, the bike doesn't slow down so fast because the controller isn't working. Although I don't think brake regen works over 75 mph from something in the program. Coasted down from 92 mph a few times and at 75 I really felt the bike slow down.
-
On that regen note; Harlan reprogrammed my controller a couple of weeks ago to completely eliminate all regen from SPORT mode (I now have the handlebar mounted momentary switch to go into ECO mode when slowing or approaching a stop). So after a couple of weeks of riding with free coasting - I like it very much. However, it's not like having a freewheel on a bicycle, there is still a lot of drag from spinning the motor since when coasting it is a high gear to the motor when driven from the wheel. But as you say, there is a noticeable difference when there is no SPORT mode regen. I think that ZERO was afraid of having too little slowing when riders would roll off the throttle. :o
My frustration was having to keep some throttle open just to go downhill on shallower slopes. I can now coast slopes I used to have to keep some throttle on. :)
Trikester
-
Maybe I'm a wuss. Am I the only one on these forums who gets nervous when riding a 300 lb bike on the highway? When I'm riding my zero on the highway it feels like I'm going to blow away every time a truck passes. The 2012 Zero S SF9 is a heck of a lot less scary than the 2011, heavier with a lower center of gravity. But still.
-
A lot has happened in the two weeks since I first got the Glitch so I've summarized it here. (The short story is that Zero took my bike back to the factory, fixed it and it is to be delivered tomorrow.)
8/6/12 (week of): experienced cutouts for the first time (1400+ miles on odo), quickly became very frequent
8/9/12: coincidentally had conversation with Zero CEO and discussed this issue
8/10/12: bike serviced at local shop where it received a controller software update and encoder sync; no problems riding that day
8/11/12: test ride day; cutout multiple times near end of ride
8/15/12: Zero picked up bike and took it back to the factory
8/16/12 - 8/20/12: bike was re-tuned for timing issues using their Dyno (rolling road) and tested on a 26 mile ride with no issues; tech rode it home and it cutout on him; further testing revealed a weak signal from encoder to motor; motor swapped with fully tested new one; my bike (S-ZF9) was manufactured (VIN ending 0239) before a more detailed motor analysis test was instituted at "end of line" and they believe that my motor would have been flagged as below acceptable tolerances at that time; explanation: the encoder signal changes slightly on brushless motors with repeated heating and cooling and general break-in; the tolerances on my bike were not sufficient for this change; they are learning more from my original motor
8/21/12 (tomorrow): bike to be delivered and the testing will begin!
Since it has only been two weeks since I've even known of this problem, from my perspective Zero has been exceptionally responsive. I kind of wish that they would be more communicative with us here because no one likes to be in the dark but on the other hand I imagine that we would pepper them with so many questions that it would take them away from doing actual work in solving the issue; the people who can best answer our questions have better ways to spend their time even from our perspective. They didn't mention it but I'm sure they're following the thread closely in order to gather data so I'll bet our chatter has been helpful. Hopefully my original motor will help them even more in addressing this.
-
Today I didn't get far in the morning. I started up my bike, after having it on the charger for the past 5 days while I was on a camping trip, and it only went about 12 inches before shutting down. I rebooted the ignition and then rode off with no further problems until I returned home after 7 miles of local riding. So the problem definitely isn't related to heat - at least not in my case. My bike is number 51.
One observation I will make is that I never had a "glitch" occur until right after I had the BMS waterproofing recall work performed. ???
-
Maybe I'm a wuss. Am I the only one on these forums who gets nervous when riding a 300 lb bike on the highway?
I wouldn't call you a wuss. I feel more comfortable on the highway with my 630 pound bike. But it's not so bad I avoid the highways.
ColoPaul how many miles since the recalibration now? Do you remember if they got the motor very hot before doing the "calsincos" command while spinning the back tire? Mine wasn't and I went about 100 miles before the glitch returned, but I was too far to ride back to the dealer.
I'm up to about 250. About the motor temp; I don't know but I'd guess it was cold.
further testing revealed a weak signal from encoder to motor; motor swapped with fully tested new one; my bike (S-ZF9) was manufactured (VIN ending 0239) before a more detailed motor analysis test was instituted at "end of line" and they believe that my motor would have been flagged as below acceptable tolerances at that time; explanation: the encoder signal changes slightly on brushless motors with repeated heating and cooling and general break-in; the tolerances on my bike were not sufficient for this change; they are learning more from my original motorctual work in solving the issue;
Aha! Thanks for posting. This is why the sincos re-cal can help/change the nature of the glitch. And if the motor encoder is continuously changing, it explains why the glitch can come and go.
This also explains something I observed awhile ago: At ~500 miles, the sounds my motor made changed dramatically, especially at low speeds, enough that I was worried. I decided to wait to see if it got worse. Around ~700 miles, the noises went away. I wonder if the encoder drifted, but not enough to glitch; and then drifted back.
-
ColoPaul, expevride, monarchhonda, mehve, protomech, rotoiti, trikester, RickSteeb - just to verify, all of you have had a cut out that only a key off/on would fix, correct?
Yes.
1) was it raining, or had the bike recently gotten wet?
No. My bike was never in the true rain. Some drizzle, yes, but not rain.
2) how many miles were on the bike when it first occurred?
About 2,000.
3) how many total times has it happened?
Just once. Took it to my dealer, they had a Zero tech onsite, they reprogrammed the controller. Never happened again.
4) have you only gone to twist the throttle and no power, or have you been riding, heard a "clunk" and have it cut off?
No clunks. About 70 mph on a highway, coasted for 30 seconds or so, twisted the throttle and nothing.
5) has anyone had the bike try to go backwards when twisting the throttle?
Not me.
6) have you ever had to unplug and replug for any reason the wiring harness going to the motor or move it's routing for any reason?
No.
7) Do any of you frequently switch between sport and Eco mode?
I do. I know the instructions say I have to turn off the "ignition" before switching but the switch seems to work regardless.
-
Very interesting.
So a motor/controller recalibration has fixed it for rotoiti and Colopaul so far
Jpaulus they tried that first on yours, but still with the issue the next step is motor replacement due to low motor positioning signal strength? I wonder if a all new motor is required or whether just the sensor in the back of the motor can be replaced?
So for all of us that have had a proper BMS replacement AND controller recalibration it looks like we are in for an actual major component replacement.
Richard, how far are you from Zero HQ? 60 miles or so? Could you arrange with them to take a early morning trip to be there right when open, have them quick charge you back to 100% battery while checking your bike's motor postioning signal strength, and recalibrating your controller again, do a quick dyno run, quick charge you again and then send you on the way home in time for a late lunch? I would think seeing the bike in person instead of talking through the dealer would be the preferred method for now, until they are sure what they are dealing with by seeing enough bikes themselves firsthand.
Protomech...all eyes on you now.
-
I'll contact Zero tomorrow and see where they are.
-
Very interesting.
So a motor/controller recalibration has fixed it for rotoiti and Colopaul so far
Jpaulus they tried that first on yours, but still with the issue the next step is motor replacement due to low motor positioning signal strength? I wonder if a all new motor is required or whether just the sensor in the back of the motor can be replaced?
So for all of us that have had a proper BMS replacement AND controller recalibration it looks like we are in for an actual major component replacement.
Richard, how far are you from Zero HQ? 60 miles or so? Could you arrange with them to take a early morning trip to be there right when open, have them quick charge you back to 100% battery while checking your bike's motor postioning signal strength, and recalibrating your controller again, do a quick dyno run, quick charge you again and then send you on the way home in time for a late lunch? I would think seeing the bike in person instead of talking through the dealer would be the preferred method for now, until they are sure what they are dealing with by seeing enough bikes themselves firsthand.
Protomech...all eyes on you now.
I might be able to make it to Scotts Valley with the wind at my back, but I would never be able to make it home, even with a fully charged battery pack. The route home would be via Highway 1 and that is an honest 60 mph run against the 25-mph afternoon wind. In any case, my bike is not glitching often enough for it to be a good candidate for testing. If it was, Zero could just drive up to my home and pick my bike up like they did the last time, run it around until they got it fixed and then bring it back. I think they have a different plan for addressing the glitch this time, compared to my previous stoplight stalling issue.
-
Back when the Audi 5000 was suffering from sudden acceleration, Audi sold their cars at deep discounts. I bought one myself and it turned out to only accelerate when I pushed the gas pedal. Amazing. Anyway, I know this glitch is the real thing, but I would be willing to take a chance. If Zero were to offer me a new 2012 bike with a 30% discount, I would take one off their hands today and take my chances that a fix is in the works. Call me a risk taker.
-
Back when the Audi 5000 was suffering from sudden acceleration, Audi sold their cars at deep discounts. I bought one myself and it turned out to only accelerate when I pushed the gas pedal. Amazing. Anyway, I know this glitch is the real thing, but I would be willing to take a chance. If Zero were to offer me a new 2012 bike with a 30% discount, I would take one off their hands today and take my chances that a fix is in the works. Call me a risk taker.
If Audi sold each 5000 at a 30% discount it lost approx. 10% on every unit. Audi was a large company with a broad product line at the time of the 5000 PR crisis. They could afford to take a per-unit loss on one model.
I bet Zero's gross margin across its narrow product line is less than 20%. Including cost of sales, marketing, and so on I'm sure the entire business is operating at a loss. They'd not only lose $10% on every unit at a 30% discount, they'd burn cash even faster than they are today. They have to work the problem until it's fixed.
They must be frustrated as hell because the 2011 S was bulletproof. Then they changed the battery, motor, and added regen. That's a huge set of changes that has to get through god knows how many hours of unit and system testing. Better than the old Macs, though. New models hardly worked at all. One glitch ain't so bad, if there aren't more.
-
I think the 2013s will be so much better than the 2012s that Zero will need to offer the 2012s at a discount anyway in order to sell them. Those Li batteries aren't getting better with age. It's not like buying a bike that remains unchanged for many years. Look how old the 2010 electric technology looks now. One way or the other, Zero is going to have to sell the 2012s at a discount pretty soon. There may not be too many of them out there though..maybe a couple hundred of all models combined. That's water under the bridge and they need the cash flow. I'd get the new bikes out NOW and offer the 2012s at a discount. Beat Empulse to the punch.
-
My dealer still has about 5 new 2011 Zero models in their showroom. They are offering them for $1000 off list price, but my guess is that you could buy one for less than that.
-
Contacted Zero today, they just received the bike this morning. Shipped out on the 10th, 7 business day / 11 real day ship time.
The Warranty POC says they have put the bike on the dyno and it's in engineering's hands now. I will forward any findings here.
-
Looking forward to the update. No cutouts in 2 days, just motor vibrations from running out of sync. If I start to back off and slow down and just goose the throttle a dozen times or so until I all the sudden feel the throttle response and power come back and then get on it hard, it usually stays good for a while. We need an in-line signal amplifier and good shielding around those sensor signal wires!
Anyone else with updates?
-
Got the bike back from the factory yesterday and rode it last night and this morning and it rides like new.
-
That is great news! Now, of course, what we all want to know is what was done by Zero to solve the problem?
I suspect that information will come out in a formal recall announcement sometime in the near future.
-
They had to replace my motor but the fix may not be so extreme for others. See the details in reply #186:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=1964.msg8942#msg8942 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=1964.msg8942#msg8942)
-
8/10/12: bike serviced at local shop where it received a controller software update and encoder sync; no problems riding that day
8/11/12: test ride day; cutout multiple times near end of ride
8/15/12: Zero picked up bike and took it back to the factory
8/16/12 - 8/20/12: bike was re-tuned for timing issues using their Dyno (rolling road) and tested on a 26 mile ride with no issues; tech rode it home and it cutout on him; further testing revealed a weak signal from encoder to motor; motor swapped with fully tested new one; my bike (S-ZF9) was manufactured (VIN ending 0239) before a more detailed motor analysis test was instituted at "end of line" and they believe that my motor would have been flagged as below acceptable tolerances at that time; explanation: the encoder signal changes slightly on brushless motors with repeated heating and cooling and general break-in; the tolerances on my bike were not sufficient for this change; they are learning more from my original motor
That's what really worries me with respect to my bike, the glitch is sometimes very intermittent - even after it started cutting out very frequently, there was still a random 50 mile stretch where it was perfect. I would much rather Zero take their time to ensure the bike is functioning properly than to tweak it and kick it out the door.
-
I would much rather Zero take their time to ensure the bike is functioning properly than to tweak it and kick it out the door.
What they discovered with my bike is that they need to run their relatively new electrical test for the signal strength tolerance from the encoder to motor. That is a test that is fortunately independent of experiencing a glitch.
-
has anyone had the glitch completely fixed?
-
My dealer still has about 5 new 2011 Zero models in their showroom. They are offering them for $1000 off list price, but my guess is that you could buy one for less than that.
Hi Richard, is this Harlan ? Might asked him to sell to Australia .... if we get the shipping osrted....
-
has anyone had the glitch completely fixed?
Yes, mine was recently fixed.
-
has anyone had the glitch completely fixed?
Yes, mine was recently fixed.
So stoked about this!!!! I'm soooo ready to quit having close calls with vehicles lol, although it has made the past 6 or 7 weeks extremely exciting and perhaps long term made me a much better rider as I have had to force myself to plan out hundreds of "what if" scenerios far far in advance. But it sure would be nice to relax a little and avoid the "oh shit" feeling when you go to accelerate to get out of a hairy situation and nothing is there or you start coasting faster out of the blue for no reason. (When the "glitch" happens when riding off throttle the regen quits working and you go from slowing down to feeling like you are actually partly on the throttle at high speed. I know a few of you know the crazy I'm talking about)
So for those of us far from a local dealer do we have Zero ship us a replacement motor? I had my motor out a few weeks ago when I replaced a snapped drive belt and used that opportunity to go from a 28 tooth to a 25 tooth front sprocket, which for the way I ride was definitely a performance boost with no loss of top end I can see. The stock gearing let the motor spin up to 101 mph that I could tell from when I had the wheel off the ground. 3 teeth around 25 equates to almost 12% at 100 or drop from 101 mph theoretical to 89 mph theoretical. Oooops got off track a little. What i meant to say is the motor replacement is 100 times easier than removing the motor in a gas bike. Can do it in under 2 hours first time, and if you've done it before and know all the tools you need ahead of time, probably less than 30 minutes.
The biggest thing we all need is the proper diagnostic procedure to test the motor encoder signal strength. Although if recalibrating the controller didn't work, I guess testing the encoder becomes unnecessary as it is all that is left it could be. Luke, Ryan do you guys agree with this analysis or have an alternate one? Thanks.
-
My dealer still has about 5 new 2011 Zero models in their showroom. They are offering them for $1000 off list price, but my guess is that you could buy one for less than that.
Hi Richard, is this Harlan ? Might asked him to sell to Australia .... if we get the shipping osrted....
My Zero dealer is Mission Motorcycles (no relation to the one-off EV manufacturer of the same name and located a few miles north) in Daly City, CA. They also sell Honda, Kawasaki, and Yamaha motorcycles. Zeros are just a small part of their business. I kind of doubt they are set up to sell and ship motorcycles overseas.
-
Zero's powertrain lead called today and chatted for a few minutes.
He said there are a couple of possible issues they're chasing - one is a faulty motor like jpaulus, one is an encoder that can drift over time and thermal / power cycles. They're looking at a new firmware released by Sevcon which supposedly can compensate for encoder drift. They're fairly confident encoder drift is what was causing my motor glitch.
He says arriving at a permanent solution for motor glitches is top priority for Zero. Sounds like they have some debugging ahead of them yet .. but hopefully they're making progress. I've been promised a regular (daily) update on the bike, and I'll pass that along.
-
Zero's powertrain lead called today and chatted for a few minutes.
He said there are a couple of possible issues they're chasing - one is a faulty motor like jpaulus, one is an encoder that can drift over time and thermal / power cycles. They're looking at a new firmware released by Sevcon which supposedly can compensate for encoder drift. They're fairly confident encoder drift is what was causing my motor glitch.
He says arriving at a permanent solution for motor glitches is top priority for Zero. Sounds like they have some debugging ahead of them yet .. but hopefully they're making progress. I've been promised a regular (daily) update on the bike, and I'll pass that along.
Great info! Can't wait for the updates!
-
I concur. That is great news and it reinforces my faith that Zero will solve the "glitch" soon and keep us on the road without riding with a nervous twitch while waiting for the next power shutdown.
-
I have been following this thread regularly...As a good Latin, I trend not to be negative, and trust people, but life & experience have worked very hard in turning me into a -no words- but a facts & data guy...
- The first "glitch" was reported early February, and at the end of August Zero is still trying to figure this out...fine. Let's hope this Top Priority 6 months time-taken analysis will finish soon
- As someone with technicall product & manufacturing background I have a big conflict with this timeframe, which leads me to think their resources are busy in manufacturing & 2013 NPD
- Some of the forum members are risking their lives out there riding their bikes (I may be one of them) :(
I'm not experiencing the glitch yet, although my motor/controller is starting to make a kind of "piiiiiiiiii" noise lately, and I feel a light power lost sometimes.
-
Actually I am fairly convinced they have it solved. And it tends to make sense. As lots of us that got motor/controller recalibrations it would fix it for a few hundred miles then it would return.
The reason for this is it would recalibrate to the current positioning of the motor encoder in the back of the motor which is seated with an epoxy like potting material. Over lots of high heat thermal expansions, this material would soften just enough that the encoder would shift position slightly.
One reason it tended to be fine for the first 2000 miles or so, and for those who had less than that, it occurred during summer. In fact most of us had the majority of the issues during the hottest months when the motor was unable to dissipate heat as well due to a higher ambient temperature.
I believe the engineers are reporting their findings to Mr. Walker tomorrow and we should hear by mid week the official fix for the glitch. It may be a simple trip to your dealer for a 30 minute motor swap, or if you live far from a dealer, a motor shipped in a box with R&R step by step instructions and a diagnostic kit loan to calibrate the new motor to the controller if you feel comfortable doing that sort of thing yourself. Like I said in an earlier post, it's 1000 times easier than swapping the motor in a gasoline bike if you have ever done that. If the key is off the contactor is open and no voltage is going to the controller and definitely not to the motor so there's no risk of anything if the wires touch anything, and you really can't screw it up as the 3 wires are clearly marked with permanent marker dots, 1 dot, 2 dots and 3 dots for easy reinstallation.
If you're not comfortable doing that, I'm not sure what they will do, as it would be definitely be cheaper to send a mobile technician city to city to do quick motor swaps for customers than ship crates out to people then ship bikes to California and then back again.
Good news is I feel comfortable the fix is on the way.
-
I cannot imagine Zero swapping out all the motors. I think the fix will be something else.
-
Hope you are right offthegrid. In these kind of business I love to be wrong.
Although I could do the fixing/changing myself, I'm lucky enough to have Zero's Spanish dealer only 40 miles away.
-
Woah, I just saw a CNBC clip from early January 2012 with Scot Harden.
http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000068136 (http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000068136)
I was playing it in one window doing work in another just listeneng to the words and the nice peaceful sound of the Zero accelerating, and all the sudden I froze and my eyes got big. I heard it!!!! The "glitch". The "noise" of the motor running against itself or out of timing. A precursor at high speed to cutting out. The sick, struggling, vibration causing "growl" instead of the clean, perfect jet turbine sounding soft "whine".
Check from 1:28 to 1:30 and you will hear it too. When I replayed it i noticed whoever the rider is starts looking down at the bike while accelerating instead of safely looking in front of him, as he's probably trying to figure out what's going on.
Interesting... remember this is January this year
-
I wonder what a new motor costs? If Zero really had to replace the motor (and they couldn't stick the supplier for the cost), I would imagine that they would try to come up with a fix to replace or otherwise modify the encoder in the dealer's shop, rather than replace the motor. Either that, or remove a few motors, rebuild them at the factory and use the rebuilt motors to replace the ones being removed and then return those to the factory to be repaired, etc.
-
Motenergy ME0913 is ~$800 from various sources on the internet. Zero uses a heavily modified ME0913, their cost is certainly much less - very likely less than shipping the bike back and forth.
If there are a couple of things which can cause the glitch, I suspect the motor is the least common of them.
-
Woah, I just saw a CNBC clip from early January 2012 with Scot Harden.
http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000068136 (http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000068136)
I was playing it in one window doing work in another just listeneng to the words and the nice peaceful sound of the Zero accelerating, and all the sudden I froze and my eyes got big. I heard it!!!! The "glitch". The "noise" of the motor running against itself or out of timing. A precursor at high speed to cutting out. The sick, struggling, vibration causing "growl" instead of the clean, perfect jet turbine sounding soft "whine".
Check from 1:28 to 1:30 and you will hear it too. When I replayed it i noticed whoever the rider is starts looking down at the bike while accelerating instead of safely looking in front of him, as he's probably trying to figure out what's going on.
Interesting... remember this is January this year
It's a bit hard to hear with the 120-dB announcer, but it's definitely there. Now I know what to listen for, lol. When the rider comes back in, he starts saying something from under his helmet, but they cut away from it pretty quickly :)
-
I don't see any dots on my motor wires. ??? Got my bike in Feb of 2012, I wonder if they started marking the wires later?
Trikester
-
I don't see any dots on my motor wires. ??? Got my bike in Feb of 2012, I wonder if they started marking the wires later?
Trikester
They are on ends of the cables on the lugs. Take off the plastic motor cover and you should see them.
-
It's a bit hard to hear with the 120-dB announcer, but it's definitely there. Now I know what to listen for, lol. When the rider comes back in, he starts saying something from under his helmet, but they cut away from it pretty quickly :)
Yes it is hard to hear a little. I think because when it happens to me I literally have to make drastic moves as fast as possible I have learned to have a little bit of a conditioned adrenaline response when the bike does that. Typing on a spread sheet listening to the interview with Mr. Harden and all the sudden I felt I needed to make a drastic decision. Haha, then I reaized what happened. I must have heard the noise in the video! I backed it up 20 seconds to listen again and sure enough there it was. Faint, but there. I'm not sure who was riding it when it happened, or if they said anything to Scot or anyone, or if this is the only time it ever happened to this bike, but zero might have had one of the first bikes with the glitch in their possession the whole time.
-
Can't watch the CNBC video on my Touchpad, maybe not allowed because I'm in Australia, is it on YouTube or can the bit showing the glitch be uploaded.
-
Woah, I just saw a CNBC clip from early January 2012 with Scot Harden.
http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000068136 (http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000068136)
I was playing it in one window doing work in another just listeneng to the words and the nice peaceful sound of the Zero accelerating, and all the sudden I froze and my eyes got big. I heard it!!!! The "glitch". The "noise" of the motor running against itself or out of timing. A precursor at high speed to cutting out. The sick, struggling, vibration causing "growl" instead of the clean, perfect jet turbine sounding soft "whine".
Check from 1:28 to 1:30 and you will hear it too. When I replayed it i noticed whoever the rider is starts looking down at the bike while accelerating instead of safely looking in front of him, as he's probably trying to figure out what's going on.
Interesting... remember this is January this year
To me that sounds like belt noise. Try tightening your belt, or applying some silicone lube, or whatever lube is recommended by the manufacturer.
-ryan
-
That growl is pretty much unrelated to the cutouts in my personal opinion. YOu will feel and hear the motor vibrate and "growl" under high temperatures and high stress, however, it is not related to nor the cause of the cut out. That being said, cut outs would be most likely to happen during the time the motor was under heavy stress thus making it seem as if the growling was connected.
I recommend everyone with cut out issues look up under the front of the bike at the top of the battery case and make sure your wiring harness is not rubbing or cutting on the edge of the battery box. If it is, put a pice of weather stripping in there, or plastic wire protector around the harness to make sure it stops rubbing.
-
I've had growling / motor roughness under light load (constant 40 mph) and very often the motor would cut out if it was stopped after the intermittent roughness.
-
Exactly. I might have explained it wrong, but to clarify, the noise im refering to is the one in the video. Not the belt noise. Definitely coming from the motor, and as someone who has over 8000 miles on the bike with it cutting out 20-30 times a day for the past 5000 miles, I can safely say when I start to hear that noise, if I continue to push the motor it will cut out.
And as protomech said often when I come to a stop it will stall after hearing that noise. normally when slowing down when you get to 10 mph or so the bike starts to go faster and you have to squeeze the brakes a little harder to stop. This is because the cut out has occurred and the regen stops working.
I've heard that noise literally thousands of times now, many times a day. it sounds like the motor is running out of phase and out of tune with itself, fighting against itself and it growls and vibrates and makes that audible noise and then almost always is followed by a cut out either immediately or shortly after. Logic and reason lead me to believe there to be almost no possibility the two can not be related.
I'll see if i can borrow a Go Pro and strap it on the bike for a ride or two. I tried to explain it the best I could but seeing it and hearing it can do more than I could ever describe with words. I will compare the two after I record a video but I am certain it is the same exact noise from the CNBC video.
-
Knock on wood, but I just returned from a 65-mile ride, having used only 6 bars on the fuel gauge, and not another glitch in sight. I have gone 150 miles since my first real glitch and so far everything is running smooth. It is a mystery to me how the glitch can just pop up a time or two and not return for a while. It just doesn't make any sense to me. You would think that if it is caused by a failed component, or a software problem, or electrical interference, the glitch would return more often. ???
-
My 2012 S-9 stalled several times today coming back from a meeting. Each time it cut out when trying to accelerate away from an intersection when the light turned green, though the last time was in my gravel driveway when I got home (I have to slow considerably in the loose gravel, but it was not a stall from stop). And yes there was the "growl" (roughness) from the motor at different speeds (highway and light throttle around town) on the way to the meeting beforehand. A few weeks ago my wife took the bike for a ride to a favourite cafe and called in a panic because she could not get the bike started to come back. I was able to start it right away when I got there and until today there was never a reoccurrence.
Is my motor or controller disintegrating? Will the bike become increasingly unreliable? What a let-down! I was so keen on this bike.
I'm up in Canada - fat chance Zero will come look at my bike here. What do I do?
-
My bike became unrideable due to this glitch.(less than 700 miles/1125km) I returned it to the dealer because Zero said they can log into it and fix the problem remotely in less than an hour. Fast forward a week and the dealer still has the bike. Advice that I will give to you... Make sure the dealer has the computer for zero to log into before you take it to them. Set up and email conversation with both zero and your dealer so everyone (including you)knows what is going on. If you depend on the motorcycle for any transportation, find a new form. I was told yesterday that i will find out tomorrow if i need a new motor or not. I wish you luck with yours.
-
I feel the problem that is happening with the motor is related to the type of motor. This would explain why the Zero XU, MX and X aren’t having the problem. The Zero S and DS have dual stator motors. It appears that they went with this type because they could get a lot more torque without increasing the diameter of the motor. The calibration (sincos) is an indication that they are trying to have one stator push while the other one is pulling (hence the name sin cos). It seems that the encoder is critical to keeping both stators from fighting each other (this is where I feel the growl comes from). It is also normal for electric motors to growl under load but in this case it looks like the load is being caused by it being out of timing.
One other thought I have is that the controller cutting out is possibly its way of protecting itself from burning up. One of the jobs of industrial controllers is also to protect the motor.
-
To me that sounds like belt noise. Try tightening your belt, or applying some silicone lube, or whatever lube is recommended by the manufacturer.
-ryan
Ryan, I think you are right. This morning was the first ride since the rain from Hurricane Issac this weekend and the thunderstorms yesterday (first since I heard the video). And today I really listened close (usually I have headphones on in my helmet, today I left them out).
The frequency sounds the same, but it's like a slightly different instrument is playing the tune. The motor definitely makes more of a vibrational growl, the belt more of a vibrational stringed instrument, but it is darn close.
I happened quite a few times this morning and realized I probably could have convinced myself the glitch occurs when ever I am near a silver honda accord or shortly after, lol. There actually was a different silver accord each of the first three times it happened today. It's just happening so much and with seemingly no rhyme or reason I am just hoping a solution is available any day now. It's almost not fun anymore :(
-
Luckily my local dealer up here in Oakville Canada invested in the machine needed to do the software upgrade (said it cost him $1300). He's been great. I'll be bringing in the bike tomorrow to have them address this issue. He said the DS he sold the same week I bought mine developed the same problem. I'll let you know how it goes.
-
Since I converted my 2012 DS to chain drive I won't have any doubts about where the growl comes from if I start to hear it. So far I have not experienced this problem (fingers crossed here)(we should have an icon for that).
Trikester
-
My glitch started at 6k miles and has failed consistently over the past 1k miles. One thing that I did that makes it a bit more bearable is to wire the Sevcon logic power through the eco/sport switch. I connected J5 pin 1 and J17 pin 1 through the switch (see diagram and spreadsheet). This allows the motor controller power to be removed without rebooting the entire bike. Now, the reset takes much less time and leaves the lights on while I am working the switch. I traced some of the wire harness and documented it in the attached spreadsheet.
-
Very clever!
Now we just need something that auto-cycles when it detects the glitch.
Latest news from Zero:
The new sevcon firmware which corrects the encoder drift has some of the same issues Zero corrected in the earlier shipping firmware, eg cutouts or sporadic behavior when full throttle over bumps, curbs, or potholes. Sounds like an upgrade versus random encoder drift glitches to me.. but still some work to be done it seems.
-
I traced some of the wire harness and documented it in the attached spreadsheet.
You are too modest, many thanks for sharing information.
-
What about the emergency kill switch that is on the right handlebar? Will that accomplish the same thing (recycling the controller)? I know it does leave the lights on while disabling the motor, so it does seem like it might do the job.
It would be informative to know if anyone has tried that approach.
Trikester
-
The kill switch inhibits the motor controller but it does not remove power to its logic circuit.
-
Took my S9 to my local dealer today and they did a software update/restart and so far it seems to be ok.
blake
-
Took my S9 to my local dealer today and they did a software update/restart and so far it seems to be ok.
blake
Great to hear blake!! Was it a cecalibration? calsincos command when logged in to Zero MBB> through the OBDII connector? Did you see them lift the bike and spin the back wheel?
My calibration values keep changing. For that to occur i'm feeling like something solid state must be moving that shouldn't be.
Haha and Mericle!!! That is an incredible piece of work you did!!! It will come in very useful for those of us away from a local dealer trying to fix this issue on our own!
Also I like the idea of the red button on the right being modified to remove power to the controller and being able to reset it in a instant without having to take your hand off the handle bars. I've done it so much, yesterday was awful , 50+ times :(, yet I had another calibration done and it ran so good for 25 miles or so. Trouble is reseting the key when on the highway and there is an elevation change or debris to avoid or run over and hold on. With one hand it's hard to keep the bike from getting the shakes, and I'm a pretty strong guy. We need a way to keep both hands on the bars and reset remotely. This is why i moved the position of the eco/sport switch. It was dangerous and unsafe in it's current location to switch while riding, which from reading the forums, that most people will naturally do.
-
Very clever!
Now we just need something that auto-cycles when it detects the glitch.
Latest news from Zero:
The new sevcon firmware which corrects the encoder drift has some of the same issues Zero corrected in the earlier shipping firmware, eg cutouts or sporadic behavior when full throttle over bumps, curbs, or potholes. Sounds like an upgrade versus random encoder drift glitches to me.. but still some work to be done it seems.
How new is that firmware? I want to give it a shot asap!
Also the idea of a cutout sensor that works in miliseconds to recycle the controller to work if all proper parameters are met is a brilliant idea!
-
This is why i moved the position of the eco/sport switch. It was dangerous and unsafe in it's current location to switch while riding, which from reading the forums, that most people will naturally do.
Offthegrid, I hope you have seen my postings on what I did about the SPORT/ECO switch. Changing to the waterproof "bat handle" toggle switch in place of the stock rocker switch enabled me to feel the position of the switch and change it without having to look over the bar, taking my eyes off the road (or trail).
Then adding the handle bar momentary switch (double pole, also waterproof) so that with my left index finger I can go from SPORT to ECO momentarily as long as I wish (the switch springs back as soon as I release my finger hold). I do have to "blip[" the throttle each time I change modes - to initiate the change. The reason for the double pole momentary switch is to also light the brake light which warns people behind me that I'm slowing and it also puts ECO into the maximum regen mode for quick slowing (done when the brake light is on).
Both postings are back on earlier pages.
Trikester
-
Well, I got it too!!!! 2012 S9, S/N 00186, delivered May 1st 2012
.
Today, Sept 2, 2012, milage 1,435. Air temp 88, Garage temp mid 90's. Started out of the alley and turned
right onto a 4 lane street in my hometown of Longmont, CO. Died. While coasting to a stop I
rebooted. I was trying to keep up with a friend who was on his BMer. For the next mile to the
next stop light intersection it ran a little ragged. Waited at the light for a few minutes then when
I got the green, started to go and it died again before I could even get out of the crosswalk.
Went to the side and turned off the key. Pushed myself back to the lane, waited only half a
minute or so then rebooted. Ran normal the rest of the way to the next town including 75 on
a major highway. I was going to my friends house so he could test drive the Zero (its a S9).
He took a 15 minute ride without a glitch. Then going back home I ran it 10 miles down the
road at 70. I'll be contacting the dealer on Tuesday.
PS: The 1st glitch occured as I was "Gently" accerating in a right turn. The 2nd glitch occured
after moving a few feet. In between the motor ran a little rough. After the 2nd reboot, it was
back to the smooth operation I was used to.
-
Hey Trikester, I did see your post on that and I already moved my switch from the unsafe position to the handlebar using the wires for the horn which I have never used on a motorcycle in 15 years of riding. I'm just not a horn type of guy lol. And I felt much safer as you and others did, by not having to take your hand off the handle bars to switch modes.
Trouble is each time you switch it records a position in the main bike board log looks something like this:
"11080 07/30/2012 18:25:56 Low Speed Switch pos = ON
11081 07/30/2012 18:26:03 Low Speed Switch pos = OFF
11082 07/30/2012 18:26:04 Low Speed Switch pos = ON
11083 07/30/2012 18:26:18 Low Speed Switch pos = OFF"
Or should i say it looks exactly like that. I stopped using the button that day as my cutouts were getting worse and i wanted to make sure I wasn't filling my log up with ten thousand regen switches, that might be adding to, or complicating the problem. I went back and saw i was filling up my log with hundreds of switches a day and as much as it makes sense to ride this way as it is the logical, efficient, environmentally best way, this isn't the absolute best way to achieve this.
I think the real fix to the regen is programming. it's something normally like 7% in sport, then 15% with the brakes on. But in eco it's like 15% normally and 25% with the brakes on. I'd like to program sport mode to be 25% on off throttle, and even higher than that when braking. If you ever want to truly coast, you always have throttle control for that, just give a little twist. ;)
-
Well, I got it too!!!!
.
Today, milage 1,435. Air temp 88, Garage temp mid 90's. Started out of the alley and turned
right onto a 4 lane street in my hometown of Longmont, CO. Died. While coasting to a stop I
rebooted. I was trying to keep up with a friend who was on his BMer. For the next mile to the
next stop light intersection it ran a little ragged. Waited at the light for a few minutes then when
I got the green, started to go and it died again before I could even get out of the crosswalk.
Went to the side and turned off the key. Pushed myself back to the lane, waited only half a
minute or so then rebooted. Ran normal the rest of the way to the next town including 75 on
a major highway. I was going to my friends house so he could test drive the Zero (its a S9).
He took a 15 minute ride without a glitch. Then going back home I ran it 10 miles down the
road at 70. I'll be contacting the dealer on Tuesday.
Sgmdudley I went through this thread again and with the large number of new cases of this that have been posted the past few weeks, it looks like about 20 bikes on this forum have had it happen. How many total zero owners do we have that post regularly here? 30 or so? Anyone know? It looks like more than half the bikes have got it already, most with close to 2000 miles. My guess is the others just have less miles or were from an early production run. i know from talking to Jon, matt and Richard at Zero, some of the very first bikes made they have there have close to 25k miles and harlans bike have a lot more miles and never had it. I wonder what changed in production that caused all the later produced bikes to get it? I didn't get mine till late April.
Last week I reperformed a calsincos when hot and it was initally worse. In fact all it would do was go backwards when you applied the throttle until once it tried to go backwards and giving it more throttle and out of nowhere it finally shot forward at full speed almost throwing me off the bike. Went back and did the recalibration it again and it seemed to fix it. However another 50 miles or later and it started to run rough again. :(
I was able to get an emailed copy of my logs and one of the first things I noticed was my motor controller hits the restriction temp of 70C stage one, and 75C stage 2 almost daily. The motor stage one and 2 restrictions are at 145C and 152C but my motor usually is cooler at around 120C-140C when the controller overheats. The batteries are usually between 35C and 40C with their restrictions begin at 50C stage 1 and 60C stage 2.
At least on my bike the controller is the weak link. I dont know if the heatsink wasn't seated properly or whether something inside is faulty, but with the amount of heat cycles it's hit, even though power fully restricts at 75C the controller temp has crept up to at least 80C, way over its limit. I think it's time to upgrade the controller. Something must be worng with it after going through all these over max allowable temp heat cycles. Example from my logs:
"00238 05/21/2012 09:30:10 High Mot/Ctrl/Pack Temp Mot: 136C, Ctrl: 79C, Pack: 40C
00239 05/21/2012 09:30:20 High Mot/Ctrl/Pack Temp Mot: 137C, Ctrl: 80C, Pack: 40C
00240 05/21/2012 09:30:30 High Mot/Ctrl/Pack Temp Mot: 138C, Ctrl: 80C, Pack: 40C
00241 05/21/2012 09:30:40 High Mot/Ctrl/Pack Temp Mot: 137C, Ctrl: 79C, Pack: 40C"
Simply from a safety standpoint. I tried to let zero figure out what it is with the encoder, but I never seem to hear back from them without repeated calling, and I just can't keep riding with these cutouts without actively trying new things to fix it. One of these days cutting out with a semi truck too close behind me and I'm gonna get it while trying to fiddle with the key and him texting and driving out of the corner of his eye. Warranty voided or not, from a safety standpoint I feel I have no other choice. Pretty sure legally any lawyer, judge or jury would say after 6000 of the almost 9000 miles total I have, I waited a reasonable amount of time to allow them to tell my closest dealer what to do to fix it. Although again it looks like the underzised controller is at least part of the problem as the data clearly indicates it is constantly stressed to it's limit and the issue is no doubt the ability for the controller to sense the correct position of the motor. All the software upgrades and calibrations aren't doing it. Time to replace one or both of the remaining components. I probably should have done this a long time ago.
What sucks is 99% of the time it runs great, enough so that I gamble with it on each ride that it might be ok this time, but then when it happens, it happens a lot. I don't know how to replace the encoder, if I did I'd do it, but I feel comfortable installing an upgraded controller, especially since my logs show absolute proof my damn size 4 controller sits at between 70 degrees C and 75C the majority of it's life, and that it's maximum happy limit. It other words it's probably rather unhappy and potentially the source of my safety issues. Logically knowing what I now know, if I didn't inform someone who was riding a bike that was cutting out all the time that their controller was undersized and perhaps faulty from heat damage, I could be considered negligent. But since it is me, I feel the only prudent thing to do to protect myself is to do the logical thing and replace the weakest known link in the system and hope for the best.
Sorry for the rant, ususally pretty happy at 6 in the morning, especially on a day off. I wanted to go riding this morning, but realized I better wait for the sun to rise just to be safe if there was a cutout and someone didn't see me. So all I was left to do was get on the conputer and complain, lol. It's almost 7 and starting to get light. Gonna go for a ride. Wish me luck. :)
p.s. when you get a recalibration done, ask your dealer to email you a copy of your logs, both the main bike board, and BMS. more interesting reading than the sunday comics I promise, and you can put 2 and 2 together as you look at the dates of all your errors and say "oh yeah' I remember the bike cutting out then! Might help us all get to the bottom of this.
-
I last week I rode another 300 miles without a single problem.
The stalling episodes that sgmdudley reported above might not have been the "glitch" but might have been the stalling issue that I had when my bike was new, which was solved with a new throttle assembly. The stalling problem seems to occur when stopped and without any warning or vibration. The "glitch" seems to happen when under way and is accompanied by a weird noise and vibration, resulting in the bike slowing down dramatically, but not completely stalling immediately - stalling comes a few seconds later. The "stalling when stopped" problem can most likely be fixed by the retail dealer. Zero seems to have a handle on that problem, as my bike has not stalled like that since it was repaired 2000 miles ago.
-
My 2011 S quit on me an hour ago. Ran perfectly when I went to lunch, but as I twisted the throttle to leave Subway, it accelerated, hesitated a couple times, lost power, and then stopped a hundred yards away. After I came to a stop and twisted the throttle, there was this growling sound coming from the motor I think, then nothing...nearly full battery cause I was only a mile from home..downhill most of the way so I got over on a sidewalk and walked and coasted it home. After 4 or 5 reboots, and plugging the bike in to recharge, still nothing. Could have been a lot worse if I was on the interstate instead of a parking lot.
-
My 2011 S quit on me an hour ago. Ran perfectly when I went to lunch, but as I twisted the throttle to leave Subway, it accelerated, hesitated a couple times, lost power, and then stopped a hundred yards away. After I came to a stop and twisted the throttle, there was this growling sound coming from the motor I think, then nothing...nearly full battery cause I was only a mile from home..downhill most of the way so I got over on a sidewalk and walked and coasted it home. After 4 or 5 reboots, and plugging the bike in to recharge, still nothing. Could have been a lot worse if I was on the interstate instead of a parking lot.
Sorry to hear about that. 2011's are still under warranty, right? Sounds like a hard failure of some kind, however- not the dreaded 'glitch'.
-
Yes, still under warranty. I have 3600 miles on it. I usually do not take it to Subway (restaurant) which is closeby, so I really lucked out being able to essentially walk and coast the bike home. Pushing 196 lbs up my driveway was the hardest part, but even that wasn't bad. I'll see if AF1 can pick it up tomorrow and I'll post the details once I get them. May be a bad throttle.
-
My 2011 S quit on me an hour ago. Ran perfectly when I went to lunch, but as I twisted the throttle to leave Subway, it accelerated, hesitated a couple times, lost power, and then stopped a hundred yards away. After I came to a stop and twisted the throttle, there was this growling sound coming from the motor I think, then nothing...nearly full battery cause I was only a mile from home..downhill most of the way so I got over on a sidewalk and walked and coasted it home. After 4 or 5 reboots, and plugging the bike in to recharge, still nothing. Could have been a lot worse if I was on the interstate instead of a parking lot.
Sorry to hear about that. 2011's are still under warranty, right? Sounds like a hard failure of some kind, however- not the dreaded 'glitch'.
Hi, had a similar issue and multiple re-sets eventually got the sucker going again. As it is quite a different motor - Agni - I start another thread on the 2011.
-
Trouble is each time you switch it records a position in the main bike board log looks something like this:
"11080 07/30/2012 18:25:56 Low Speed Switch pos = ON
11081 07/30/2012 18:26:03 Low Speed Switch pos = OFF
11082 07/30/2012 18:26:04 Low Speed Switch pos = ON
11083 07/30/2012 18:26:18 Low Speed Switch pos = OFF"
Or should i say it looks exactly like that. I stopped using the button that day as my cutouts were getting worse and i wanted to make sure I wasn't filling my log up with ten thousand regen switches, that might be adding to, or complicating the problem. I went back and saw i was filling up my log with hundreds of switches a day and as much as it makes sense to ride this way as it is the logical, efficient, environmentally best way, this isn't the absolute best way to achieve this.
It really ticks me off that the designer put this register in there to record the number of times we switch from SPORT to ECO and back. According to Harlan it will eventually lead to an error signal (after thousands of switches). I don't know if the error signal produced by this register will effect the running of the bike or not, it may just be an indicator. My point is; why does anyone care to know how many times the rider switches between modes? Keeping a record of mode switches seems like a totally unnecessary function to me, that may cause some difficulty down the line. >:(
Trikester
-
Sometimes Engeneers+marketing get a little ahead of themselves...maybe they just wanted to find out if it is worth to keep the ECO/SPORT switch on the bike in the long run...who knows...
-
morning Lipo, just tried to put my 2c here as well:
guess they left the "debug" mode on ?? if the register runs full the bike might shut down -- as it cannot record more. At least no further errors being recorded.
-
Oh, that's just great! >:( What next?
If I'm in the middle of nowhere and my DS shuts down because the stupid register is full, you can bet ZERO will hear from me as soon as (if) I make it back to civilization. :'(
Trikester
-
About the 2011 S it may be your contactor. sometimes that happens when it arcs and starts to fry.
-
About the 2011 S it may be your contactor. sometimes that happens when it arcs and starts to fry.
Hi EC - thx. so what causes "arcs" in the other "Glitch 2011" I posted some photos and inside of motor looks like it "arced" a bit. Nothing fried though unlike the Voltron race bike in the second video...
Is it that dirt or something has entered the motor ? anyway, not part of this thread and we might take it to the 2011 one...
-
Thanks for the info on the contactor. That sounds like the likely cause. Same groaning sound as in the YouTube video for sure, even though the groan only lasted a couple seconds before the motor shut down completely.
-
Maybe replacing them with a Kilovac EV200 from tyco. that's the thing to do!
they dont arc, consume only 1.7watt, yes 1.7Watts! with the coil economizer and work from 0 to 500A and up to 900Vdc and cost like 50$ on ebay.. I have couples of these here and they are far better than these stock 200A 48V one in the zero battery!
http://www.cafr.ebay.ca/itm/Kilovac-EV200-Tyco-EV200AAANA-500-A-12-900V-Relay-/290708082926?pt=BI_Control_Systems_PLCs&hash=item43af8d50ee (http://www.cafr.ebay.ca/itm/Kilovac-EV200-Tyco-EV200AAANA-500-A-12-900V-Relay-/290708082926?pt=BI_Control_Systems_PLCs&hash=item43af8d50ee)
DOc
-
The cut-outs I experienced on my 2010 DS, on rough terrain and streets, turned out to be the contactor. I have one of the very early 2010 DS's and Zero had changed to a better contactor early on in 2010 production. Mine was built before then. Hollywood Electrics upgraded the bike to the newer contactor, that ZERO had changed to, and it cleared up the problem. The original contactor was getting burned because it was not rated at high enough current.
No problem of that nature with my 2012 DS 8)
Trikester
-
I last week I rode another 300 miles without a single problem.
The stalling episodes that sgmdudley reported above might not have been the "glitch" but might have been the stalling issue that I had when my bike was new, which was solved with a new throttle assembly. The stalling problem seems to occur when stopped and without any warning or vibration. The "glitch" seems to happen when under way and is accompanied by a weird noise and vibration, resulting in the bike slowing down dramatically, but not completely stalling immediately - stalling comes a few seconds later. The "stalling when stopped" problem can most likely be fixed by the retail dealer. Zero seems to have a handle on that problem, as my bike has not stalled like that since it was repaired 2000 miles ago.
I have that stalling at stoplights issue Richard, but it started happening at the same time as the cutouts at other speeds so I just assumed them to be related. But I see now it might be 2 separate issues if you had the problem and a new throttle assembly fixed it for you. Can you give me the details of the throttle fix? I think I might try to do it to see if it helps. Thanks Richard!
-
Oh, that's just great! >:( What next?
If I'm in the middle of nowhere and my DS shuts down because the stupid register is full
I doubt the bike would shut down because a log filled up. I would be a little surprised if it wasn't a rolling log.
Latest update from Zero: after resyncing the encoder on my bike with the controller (running the shipping firmware), it glitched again yesterday. Until then they were considering returning the bike with the shipping firmware as a stopgap; now it seems they have abandoned that path and are working on correcting the bugs in the latest sevcon firmware post-haste.
-
Latest update from Zero: after resyncing the encoder on my bike with the controller (running the shipping firmware), it glitched again yesterday. Until then they were considering returning the bike with the shipping firmware as a stopgap; now it seems they have abandoned that path and are working on correcting the bugs in the latest sevcon firmware post-haste.
OK, just to clarify - when you say "shipping firmware" you're talking about the sevcon firmware which is in all our bikes. Sevcon has a 'latest' release which supposedly tracks and corrects for encoder drift - BUT - that 'latest' release is buggy and can't be used. And "resyncing the encoder" is a "sincos cal"?
So all our encoders are drifting around, and if they drift too far the "shipping firmware" of the Sevcon shuts down?
And a sincos cal can identify/recalibrate the new encoder position; but if the encoder drifts again then the glitch returns?
And the encoders are drifting because why? Someone had mentioned they are in an epoxy which can get gooey at higher temps?
And why does the sevcon work again immediately after a reboot? I'm a little confused - if the encoder has drifted far enough away that the sevcon shuts down - why wouldn't it reliably keep shutting down from that point on?
Thanks for helping me understand what's going on...
-
According to Harlan it is not a rolling log. He said that when it fills up it produces an error signal (that's why I wondered if it also shuts the motor down or does it just give an error signal that never goes away). I asked him if he can reset to clear the register and he said no, he couldn't :'(
Trikester
-
I last week I rode another 300 miles without a single problem.
The stalling episodes that sgmdudley reported above might not have been the "glitch" but might have been the stalling issue that I had when my bike was new, which was solved with a new throttle assembly. The stalling problem seems to occur when stopped and without any warning or vibration. The "glitch" seems to happen when under way and is accompanied by a weird noise and vibration, resulting in the bike slowing down dramatically, but not completely stalling immediately - stalling comes a few seconds later. The "stalling when stopped" problem can most likely be fixed by the retail dealer. Zero seems to have a handle on that problem, as my bike has not stalled like that since it was repaired 2000 miles ago.
I have that stalling at stoplights issue Richard, but it started happening at the same time as the cutouts at other speeds so I just assumed them to be related. But I see now it might be 2 separate issues if you had the problem and a new throttle assembly fixed it for you. Can you give me the details of the throttle fix? I think I might try to do it to see if it helps. Thanks Richard!
I never really knew exactly what Zero did to fix my first stalling problem. They picked up my bike at my home, took it to the factory and I was told that they replaced the throttle assembly and installed the latest (February version) of their software. They provided no other details. After that everything worked fine until the recall waterproofed BMS board was installed. Immediately after that I started experiencing random stalling.
Now I am having relatively minor issues (so far) with stalling. But this is just a little different than the usual "glitch". I am ready for the feeling like the motor is fighting itself. When that happened once, I had enough warning to pull over to the side of the road to re-boot. But these last two stalling events both occurred immediately after the ignition had been turned on and without any warning. My previous stalling problem occurred during the middle of my ride when I had been sitting at a stop light for a couple of minutes. In those two cases, the throttle would just not work. The current problem results in the throttle working for a couple of seconds before stalling and occurred only immediately after a boot-up.
I have always been good at discerning failure patterns, but these stalling problems just don't seem to have any pattern that can be reliably predicted. The occurrence of the stalling seems to be random. Trying to make sense of it and predict when it will happen is driving me nuts. It must be a failing component, or one that is receiving some sort of random signal.
Oddly, I had the same problem with my GPR-S. It ran fine for over 1000 miles and then it too started stalling somewhat randomly. This occurred after I had removed all of the batteries and the original BMS and installed individual Mini-BMS boards over each cell. I must have done something wrong when wiring everything back up, as it started to stall every few miles when I came to a stop. When that happened I had to wait for three minutes before the bike would run again for another couple of miles. It seemed to happen (but not every time) when I used the brakes, which also activated the regen. I bought the Sevcon controller programer from Harlan and it told me that the stalling problem was the result of a "contactor fault". Unfortunately, I was never able to track down what was causing the fault and I finally sold the bike. Hopefully, the new owner is smarter than I am (which wouldn't take much) and can fix the problem.
What really worries me is that Zero seems to be struggling finding a solution for the problem. I am sure that they will finally resolve the issue, but having something like this happen to a new product manufactured by a start-up company, can't be good for their bottom line or their development of future improvements to their product line. It also does nothing to bolster the reputation of electric motorcycles. I sure hope Brammo doesn't experience similar problems, but with over 2 years of continual development of the Empulse model, I would assume that is less likely.
All in all, I just want this stalling issue to go away so that I can get back to riding without any worries and so that Zero can get back to selling reliable electric motorcycles and developing new ones.
-
Latest update from Zero: after resyncing the encoder on my bike with the controller (running the shipping firmware), it glitched again yesterday. Until then they were considering returning the bike with the shipping firmware as a stopgap; now it seems they have abandoned that path and are working on correcting the bugs in the latest sevcon firmware post-haste.
OK, just to clarify - when you say "shipping firmware" you're talking about the sevcon firmware which is in all our bikes. Sevcon has a 'latest' release which supposedly tracks and corrects for encoder drift - BUT - that 'latest' release is buggy and can't be used. And "resyncing the encoder" is a "sincos cal"?
The latest release has an issue where the controller can glitch under full throttle when the wheel hits a bump. Zero corrected this problem on the original shipping firmware, and is in the process of correcting it on the most recent sevcon firmware (and going through all their other validation efforts).
So all our encoders are drifting around, and if they drift too far the "shipping firmware" of the Sevcon shuts down?
Maybe not all, but I think this is the overwhelming cause of the glitch for those who have it.
And a sincos cal can identify/recalibrate the new encoder position; but if the encoder drifts again then the glitch returns?
That's my understanding. If the controller / encoder pairing has just drifted slightly over time, then a forced recalibration can correct the problem for a significant period of time. In my case the drift is quick enough that it glitched again a short period (hundred miles?) after a forced recalibration.
And the encoders are drifting because why? Someone had mentioned they are in an epoxy which can get gooey at higher temps?
And why does the sevcon work again immediately after a reboot? I'm a little confused - if the encoder has drifted far enough away that the sevcon shuts down - why wouldn't it reliably keep shutting down from that point on?
I don't know why. Controller thermal cycles feels like the best explanation to me; glitches don't seem to be strongly linked to ambient temperature, high acceleration, high speed, etc.
I guess that when starting the controller performs a short calibration cycle. In some cases the calibration cycle fails and it almost immediately shuts off. Sometimes the only way I could get the bike to get past an immediate cutout was to push the bike a few feet and try again.
All that is just my guess, though.
***
One thing I wonder is whether the Empulse and the Enertia Plus will have the same issue. I believe both bikes are using a sevcon controller now. The Empulse only uses liquid cooling for the motor (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1428.msg11440#msg11440), so unless their thermal design is much better than the Zeros, then they may see thermal cycling issues as well.
-
I don't know why. Controller thermal cycles feels like the best explanation to me; glitches don't seem to be strongly linked to ambient temperature, high acceleration, high speed, etc.
With my glitch, I think that it is very temperature dependent. If I attempt to use the bike in the middle of a +90F day, it almost never starts immediately. It can take over 50 recycles before it will move more than a few feet. On a normal morning in central Florida, the bike fails at 2-2.5 miles. In the evening when it is warmer, the bike fails at 1mile and if I sit in traffic soon after the glitch it can fail again. I think that it cools back down when I sit in traffic too long.
To me it seems that there is a temperature band that the bike is likely to fail in. Once I make it beyond this temperature band, the bike does not glitch for the rest of a ride.
-
According to Harlan it is not a rolling log. He said that when it fills up it produces an error signal (that's why I wondered if it also shuts the motor down or does it just give an error signal that never goes away). I asked him if he can reset to clear the register and he said no, he couldn't :'(
Zero's lead powertrain engineer claims it is indeed a rolling log, and the rollover works perfectly. Take that for what it's worth. I'm not worried about the logs rolling over, at least until the flash endurance cycle limits are set .. after (worst case) a million cycles or so.
-
All in all, I just want this stalling issue to go away so that I can get back to riding without any worries and so that Zero can get back to selling reliable electric motorcycles and developing new ones.
Took the words out of my mouth.
And I agree with Mericle that I think there is a temperature that the bike is sickest at once it has caught the cold.
When back to back calsincos functions are performed within minutes the values on some parameters are quite different
for this to happen something that should be static must be acting dynamically
"ZERO MBB> calsincos
Reading values from Sevcon
sin_min_read: 0x038E
sin_max_read: 0x08EA
cos_min_read: 0x0500
cox_max_read: 0x0AE9
sin_min_actual: 0x038E
sin_max_actual: 0x0AE7
cos_min_actual: 0x0500
cos_max_actual: 0x0AE9
Writing values to Sevcon
Reading back values from Sevcon
sin_min_read: 0x038E
sin_max_read: 0x0AE7
cos_min_read: 0x0500
cox_max_read: 0x0AE9
ZERO MBB> calsincos
Reading values from Sevcon
sin_min_read: 0x038E
sin_max_read: 0x0AE7
cos_min_read: 0x0500
cox_max_read: 0x0AE9
sin_min_actual: 0x050B
sin_max_actual: 0x0AEC
cos_min_actual: 0x0505
cos_max_actual: 0x0AD8
Writing values to Sevcon
Reading back values from Sevcon
sin_min_read: 0x050B
sin_max_read: 0x0AEC
cos_min_read: 0x0505
cox_max_read: 0x0AD8
ZERO MBB> "
-
We have a 2010 model and it shuts down all the time. Lately Zero has said we are out of warranty (on this 18 month old bike that came with a 2 year warranty). The charger has failed for the 2nd or 3rd time. So no warranty, no charger, glitiching and trying to kill one of my sons all the time. Hmmm, quality customer service for a quality product, right? Yeah, right...
-
Zero is really working hard to fix the "glitch". They called me up last night and asked if they could come to my home this morning, pick up my bike and take it to the factory for their engineers to check over. I told them that my bike wasn't a very good candidate for the glitch, as it has only stalled a few times and there seems to be no pattern to the glitching. But they told me that they wanted to check out the largest number of vehicles that they could during their investigations. So at 11 am today a truck drove up and hauled away my bike. I am now internally combusted for a while. :o Hopefully, whatever they do to fix the problem my bike will get the modifications before it is returned.
I was told that (as has been previously mentioned) they are looking at a drifting encoder and dealing with controller issues. I get the impression that Zero has been having a bit of a struggle with slow communications with the controller manufacturer. When I was having stalling problems with the somewhat ancient Sevcon controller on my GPR-S, my radio engineer friend found it difficult when he tried to contact them about using the programmer and the capabilities of the controller. He didn't have much luck getting any response from the factory in England, but he did eventually track down one of their techs in the U.S. who was very helpful in answering our questions. As usual, it all depends upon getting to the right person. :)
-
Here's my latest.
recap: Had the high-speed glitch in a bad way. In August Zero took my bike back to the factory and ended up replacing the motor.
9/1/12 11 days and 220 miles after receiving the bike back from the factory I took it for a fairly gentle ride and 10 miles into it it did something that had not happened before; it failed to leave an intersection from a stop.
9/4/12 Next 'ride', *every* acceleration attempt cut-out. I got nowhere.
9/6/12 Zero picked up the bike and took it back to the factory.
Since the bike did nothing but cut-out it should give them good data again. Just my luck.
-
Hate to say this, but too many generals and not enough Indians...
When I see a 60-70 team members company with 8 VP's (+ a few directors and other managers), I wonder who's dealing with the issues.
One more month gone, and they are still trying to figure this out (first post February the 17th, viewed as per today +5.000 times)
Disapointing, very disapointing.
-
Progress with the new firmware: couple hundred miles without issue, including taking bumps at full throttle. They're loading the firmware on more of their durability testing bikes now, as well as the TTXGP bikes. (surprised we haven't seen any glitches with those bikes, TBH).
Those of you that have had your bikes picked up should be seeing updates soon. I'm ready to take my bike back - as Richard230 says, I'm ready to ride and be able to trust the bike again.
-
I've gone 600 miles without a glitch since they did a "sincos cal". :)
Still, when the recall notice comes out to get the new Sevcon firmware protomech is referring to, I'll make sure to get it!
-
I've recently had a bike that had progressed to be unrideable. It would cut out multiple times per mile and I got stuck and couldn't turn it back on. The calsincos function can turn the sickest bike into a perfectly running bike if done correctly when that happens. But you need terminal software and an OBDII (only 4 pins used) to USB connector stashed somewhere on the bike. I have limited experience with this but I have seen hex values (corresponding voltages) change by over 100% due to different motor temperatures. The hotter the better from what I've seen. When colder (still warm) something that should be 2-3 volts shows up as 1-1.5 volts. Although I may have a faulty controller, encoder or something else. But believe it or not, my bike is running good now! Crossing my fingers!!!
-
Zero's engineer reports no issues with the new firmware, running on my bike and a number of others now. Hopefully we will see an official release very soon. Zero SHOULD (speaking for myself here) roll out updates to all bikes in the field .. I hope they don't require bikes to be shipped back for repair ($$ for Zero).
-
Hopefully they can at least figure out a way to have dealers do the update, or just ship cables and software to everyone!
-
I think it would be cheaper (and much more customer-friendly) to fly a technician and their equipment to each owner's home to make the repair, if the local dealer could not perform the work and the bike instead had to be shipped back to the factory to fix the problem. I figure that it is cheaper to fly someone around the U.S. and Europe rather than shipping bikes to the factory and back to the customer. Hopefully, the modifications can be made without that much of a hassle.
-
We have a 2010 model and it shuts down all the time. Lately Zero has said we are out of warranty (on this 18 month old bike that came with a 2 year warranty). The charger has failed for the 2nd or 3rd time. So no warranty, no charger, glitiching and trying to kill one of my sons all the time. Hmmm, quality customer service for a quality product, right? Yeah, right...
Can you elaborate on how they are claiming you are out of warranty if you have a two year warranty?
-
Well, good news, at least for me. :) I just received a call from Zero. My bike has been repaired and they will be returning it to my home on Monday. I was told that the fix involved installing "firmware" and that they worked with Sevcon to resolve the drifting of the encoder. I remain a little confused about what actually was done, as I have heard of software and hardware, but I am not too sure what "firmware" is. Anyway, I was told that they did everything that they could to cause the glitch to occur on my bike and it continued to run perfectly. So hopefully this is the end of that story and we can continue to ride our Zeros without further interruptions. I assume that there will be a recall to install new "firmware" in all of the customer bikes that require it.
If the fix doesn't work, you will be the first to know. But I imagine that someone like offthegrid will really give the fix the acid test, as he rides his Zero a lot more than I do - being that I am not "off the grid" and am still pumping hydrocarbons into my other motorcycles that I ride at least once a week. :o
-
Firmware means the software loaded on an electronic device. In this case it is the software loaded on the controller.
If they're sending your bike back then I hope mine is on its way as well. I've missed it : [
-
I have been waiting for a "breakthrough" to take my bike to the factory for the [two] recall updates, hoping to get everything dialed-in at one time... As to the "glitches" on my own bike, I am now pretty certain that all occurrences can be attributed to an overheat situation. Today, on my way from Sunnyvale to South San Jose, I was maintaining around 75MPH and keeping an eye on the left-hand side of the gauges for the red blinking thermometer icon; it showed up and I slowed down to ~65MPH and watched it turn off-- about 3 times in a 5 mile stretch. My original "glitch", and several more, involved finding my way to the shoulder or doing an immediate coasting re-boot at speed on 101 [every time] without looking for the overheat indicator...
This all may well be a manifestation of hall-effect sensor drift/shift [at ~3800 miles now] causing excessive power dissipation/heating. My last two "fuel" bars were blinking at 23 miles before I got home! c.f. The day I took delivery, I only started pushing the depleted beast at ~31miles... [all likely artifacts of my last bike being a V45 Magna, and trying to ride my DS at those velocities! ;]
-
If the fix doesn't work, you will be the first to know. But I imagine that someone like offthegrid will really give the fix the acid test, as he rides his Zero a lot more than I do - being that I am not "off the grid" and am still pumping hydrocarbons into my other motorcycles that I ride at least once a week. :o
Lol, thanks Richard, I of course will do my best. Nearing the 10k mark and close to 1000 miles glitch free. Speaking of, the cutouts at low speed or stalling when stopped for an extended period have been completely fixed too. These issues at least for me have nothing to do with the throttle assembly, nothing to do with the water proofing one the BMS (these may be potential issues, just were not for me) and were completely fixed with the recalibration of the motor to controller. For a week or two I carried the diagnostic cable and laptop with me as the recalibrations would only last 50-100 miles before it happened again. But about a week ago, when I got stuck and calibrated on the fly so to speak, it held and has held since.
I'll probably carry the cable with me for a little while longer, (actually using it now for something different: to rebalance the pack when not charging as I'm quite far out of balance between my highest and lowest cell. I'm within 25 mv now but was as far as 576 mv out of balane a few days ago. The "dobalance" command turns on resistors on each bank to burn off energy on the highest 1-9 cells designated by a 1 for resistor on or 0 for resistor off. awesome feature!!!)
I did not get the new "firmware" but have had success with the recalibration for now. Good luck everyone getting back on the road!! This issue looks like it's slowly coming to an end as far as an unknown fix.
-
i must imagine Zero lurks these forums now and again. i'd just like to register my ongoing excitement and interest in purchasing a new zero ds, assuming evidence of continued and effective attention towards correcting problems which might result in failure to apply power to the drive wheel when needed. i have a solar system and six other motorcycles and adding an e-bike commuter to the stable seems like an obvious next step for me, but any potential for unpredictable complete power failure seems particularly dangerous for my riding style/environment.
nice to hear some people getting real and effective customer service.
-
3.500 Km on mine, and no glitch on sight so far...ECO/SPORT switching? I always change -carefully- between modes on the fly (which means that this should not be the issue for it)
I have been told that my BMS (coating issue) + new software, and the breaking switch will be changed in a week or so.
-
900 miles now without a glitch, since a sincos cal.
-
Similar here, almost 1,000 miles now since my successful calsincos. Took about 20 of those functions over a week of trying to get it right but finally got some sin_min values above 2 volts and eventually did one that has held.
-
This morning Zero delivered my bike repaired with the latest firmware and well tested. The trip meter showed 250 miles, so I guess the staff really wanted to make sure that there were no more glitches. I was told that the previous firmware was unable to change the encoder calibration and when things drifted a little, it couldn't make corrections. However, the new firmware is designed to adjust the encoder parameters to compensate for any drift and that should permanently solve the "glitch". But I was asked to immediately call Zero should anything else strange happen as they want to jump on any future problems ASAP. (The delivery fellow said that tomorrow he will be delivering a repaired Zero to its Oakland owner.) Let's all keep our fingers crossed that the glitch is behind us and no future glitches will occur on the 2012 models. :)
Changing the subject somewhat (because I didn't want to start a separate thread for this comment), this weekend I attended a BMW rally at Quincy, CA. At the rally, the editor of City Bike gave a seminar on electric motorcycles. Prior to that, there was a seminar by a retired CHP officer who gave his talk about how to avoid speeding tickets. That seminar was attended by about 60 people. Here is a photo of the electric motorcycle talk. Apparently the subject isn't all that interesting to most BMW riders (many of whom have the cash to buy one). :(
-
I forgot to mention that as soon as my bike was delivered I jumped on it to go ride to the grocery store and buy a week's worth of groceries. The switch was on "sport" and before starting, so I moved it to "eco", let it boot up and then turned the throttle - and nothing happened! That was a shock. I then switched back to "sport" mode, after turning off the ignition and letting it boot up again, and was able to immediately take off. After riding a mile, I shut off the bike, switched to "eco" and tried it again. It didn't move until I waited about 5 seconds and then it finally took off and operated normally. Upon starting up after buying groceries, I noticed again that there was a delay when in "eco" mode when first starting off after a boot up that wasn't there before. However, this delay does not occur when you are at a stop, only when the ignition is first turned on. It doesn't seem to do that in "sport" mode. Something is going on between the initial computer checks and the start of "eco" mode movement, but I can't imagine what. Kind of scary at first, but I can live with it as long as it only happens when first starting off.
-
I forgot to mention that as soon as my bike was delivered I jumped on it to go ride to the grocery store and buy a week's worth of groceries. The switch was on "sport" and before starting, so I moved it to "eco", let it boot up and then turned the throttle - and nothing happened! That was a shock. I then switched back to "sport" mode, after turning off the ignition and letting it boot up again, and was able to immediately take off. After riding a mile, I shut off the bike, switched to "eco" and tried it again. It didn't move until I waited about 5 seconds and then it finally took off and operated normally. Upon starting up after buying groceries, I noticed again that there was a delay when in "eco" mode when first starting off after a boot up that wasn't there before. However, this delay does not occur when you are at a stop, only when the ignition is first turned on. It doesn't seem to do that in "sport" mode. Something is going on between the initial computer checks and the start of "eco" mode movement, but I can't imagine what. Kind of scary at first, but I can live with it as long as it only happens when first starting off.
Mine has always done that. Boot it up, hop on, kick up the stand, wait 5 secs for the throttle to come alive. I figure it's a safety feature.
-
Today it took its own sweet time before moving in "sport" mode when I first started up in the morning. Later, after turning the ignition on after performing some chores, there was no hesitation before the throttle worked. I think it is a contactor thing. Sometimes I get a click from the contactor quickly and other times it takes a while before the click and movement. I wonder if it needs to be hit with a hammer a few times. ;)
-
Today it took its own sweet time before moving in "sport" mode when I first started up in the morning. Later, after turning the ignition on after performing some chores, there was no hesitation before the throttle worked. I think it is a contactor thing. Sometimes I get a click from the contactor quickly and other times it takes a while before the click and movement. I wonder if it needs to be hit with a hammer a few times. ;)
A couple of thoughts -
One, I didn't think the 2012's had contactors?
Two - here's a theory. With the bike off, open the throttle just a tidge (like 10%). Kickstand up, turn the bike on, let it boot up, while holding the throttle open. The bike won't move, and won't respond to the throttle - until the throttle is rolled to 0%. Safety feature; makes sense to me. But what may be happening to you is your throttle isn't closing all the way all the time, so when you turn on, this feature is preventing forward motion.
-
ColoPaul's guess sounds like a good one. Do you have some rotational space when the throttle is off, before it starts to take effect when the bike is operating normally? If not, then it might be more critical as to the throttle physically being in off position. My throttle has to rotate a little before it comes off of "off" in normal operation, so when closed, the off position is fairly solid.
Trikester
-
I am not sure what is going on. It just feels different since my bike was returned by the factory. I suspect that their test riders really hammered it in their effort to be sure that the glitch was gone. I'll need to ride it more and be sure that I am keeping the throttle completely closed before opening it and taking off.
Speaking of feeling different, the bike seems to have more punch off the line in "sport" mode than it did before and also seems to have slightly more regen drag in both modes. I know that it has received all of the latest programming updates so maybe performance has been tweaked somewhat since my early bike was manufactured. Yesterday I took the bike out for a ride and ran my usual route to visit my mother, which includes going up an down two small hills and one 800' high one. I was able to travel 9 miles in sport mode before the first bar disappeared. So I am not getting real excited about random slow throttle activation in the morning as long as it doesn't happen while I am riding. But if it gets any worse, I'll mention it.
-
So it's been 2 weeks since my 2012 ds zf9 died, and over a week since they supposedly sent a crate here to tucson to pick it up and bring it back to the factory to fix it and now they can't seem able to arrange a smaller truck to get out to my remote place to pick it up and i'm tempted just to push it 17 miles to the bank that financed it and let them have it back. Think zero will make a loan payment for me, since at this rate it will be over a month i'll be without my 14,000$ bike? I wonder why they wouldn't send Brock out, would have been cheaper for them and faster for me.
-
Just got a message today that my bike was dispatched for pickup. Probably it will be picked up tomorrow (9/20) and
delivered 5 business days later (9/27) is scheduled for delivery on 9/26. Since the bikes have to be delivered via ground freight, it's a good thing the BMS was redesigned to use less power.. I think the 2011 bikes would experience significant discharge over 7 days unplugged.
Disappointed that I won't have it for National Plugin Day this sunday. Definitely looking forward to have it back. It shipped out 8/10, and the weather is much nicer now. Good riding time.
-
Got my bike back from the factory yesterday and I rode it then and this morning and it's doing great. They said they just did a firmware update (my bike had started 'stalling' at intersections) and tested it out extensively. And like Richard said the bike feels punchier coming off the line. A Zero person tells me this is quite possible with the timing fixes in the new firmware. Progress.
(And again Zero customer service has been great in my experience.)
-
Well it's been 2 weeks since my 2012 died and i found out the local shipper , Estes has had the crate for a week, but they just can't seem to be able to get it to my place 15 miles outside of town until monday and i'll have to take time off work to wait for them. It's more a local problem, zero is trying but i am disappointed i am going to miss the tucson electric vehicle show this weekend. they promised me they would install the crappy saddlebags and windscreen and put on a new tire for free which will take a little of the sting away.
-
I went out riding today and didn't experience any throttle hesitation like I reported above. Everything is working very well and I am so happy with the bike's performance now that I am worried that I am going to jinx it. ??? My next plan is to visit the Zero factory, which is about 70 miles from my home and see how they are made. :) I think it is about time that someone visited the factory and took some photos of Zero central. I am just waiting for a response to my request.
Here are a couple of photos of the inside of the old factory that I acquired off of the internet (I can't recall when or where) a year or two ago.
-
This deserves a different topic, but looking at Richard's old pix of the Zero Factory years ago shows dozens of Zero's. Over on the Brammo forum, they are excited to see "Brammo Empulse Assembly Line" pictures, showing FIVE empulses in one picture, the most ever yet seen in one place at one time.
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1581.0 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1581.0)
Not to poke too much fun at the Brammo guys, but the three Empulses not on carts in the above look just like the three in this picture: (skip down to the 4th post)
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1514.0 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1514.0)
I wonder if Brammo will really be able to knock out 500 Empulses in the next 3-6 months? At the moment, it appears to be a fair amount of smoke & mirrors.
-
Doubtful. Zero has sold 300-400 Zeros (not sure if just S and DS, X / XU / MX may be serialized separately) in about 8 months, with a small but significant dealer network and prices ranging from $8-14k.
I think the 2013 Empulse R is a better bike for the money than the 2012 Zero S line, but I don't see them flying off the shelves. Zero struck first and captured a portion of the market that wanted a 100+ mile electric.
-
Recall Notice - see http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2369.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2369.0)
-
Guess Zero is and needs to settle into standard professional biz practises as we are clearly beyond start up and need efficient support, dealer training etc. voluntary recalls are a great way to control this and not uncommon
With that it is the next differentiator to ensure quality growth.
-
Doubtful. Zero has sold 300-400 Zeros (not sure if just S and DS, X / XU / MX may be serialized separately) in about 8 months, with a small but significant dealer network and prices ranging from $8-14k.
I think the 2013 Empulse R is a better bike for the money than the 2012 Zero S line, but I don't see them flying off the shelves. Zero struck first and captured a portion of the market that wanted a 100+ mile electric.
You can't compare a theoretical product to a real shipping product.
The Empulse R that has shipped zero, nada, 0, nunca, none, zilch units.
It can't be better for the money than a Zero S that has shipped 300+ units because 300+ is > 0.
-
Recall Notice - see http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2369.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2369.0)
If 5% of 2012 Zero's were impacted by the "glitch" I'd be shocked.
Zero like any responsible U.S. company has issued a recall as a precaution for all customers.
This ain't China.
Let's see how Brammo handles glitches should Brammo ever actually ship a product.
My dealer has already reached out to me to arrange to reprogram my perfectly operating 2012 Zero S to ensure that I don't have any issues.
I drive a BMW and I don't get that kind of service.
-
If 5% of 2012 Zero's were impacted by the "glitch" I'd be shocked.
A hand-waving guess would put the number of people reporting issues here at about half the number of people that have posted on the owner thread. Zero says they have endurance testing bikes with many thousands of miles that have not seen the problem, but I wonder if those are perhaps not a dozen bikes with a couple thousand miles each.
Hopefully the firmware fix gets to most customers before they see the problem.
-
my father-in-law gets that kind of service from vw, but of course he lives in germany.
here, i have to take an extra step to call the service dept for my vw's, but i do get a notice in the mail. same with my bmw
then again, this ain't germany.
i had to point out the recall to my sales guy before finalizing the deal on my new zero, but they already got it done. i'm happy :)
delivery should be this week. can't wait.
-
If 5% of 2012 Zero's were impacted by the "glitch" I'd be shocked.
A hand-waving guess would put the number of people reporting issues here at about half the number of people that have posted on the owner thread. Zero says they have endurance testing bikes with many thousands of miles that have not seen the problem, but I wonder if those are perhaps not a dozen bikes with a couple thousand miles each.
Hopefully the firmware fix gets to most customers before they see the problem.
But as I pointed out in the poll, customers without problems don't seek out a forum or post on one to let everyone know they are not having a problem. The poll is biased toward the minority with problems. How small is that minority? Who knows. Maybe Zero will tell us once the fix is done.
-
Not talking about the poll, talking about the number of users I've seen post in the glitch thread vs the number of users that have posted in the owner registry forum. Not scientific, and it's a hand-wave estimate for the glitch posters anyhow. But I would wager it's far more than 5% - if 315 bikes S / DS bikes have been produced, 5% is 15 bikes.. we probably have nearly that number of owners posting here about experiencing the glitch.
-
Bad news guys. I fixed the glitch after doing 20-30 recalibrations over a weeks time until I could get one to hold about a month ago. Since I have gone almost 2000 miles without an issue. I'm over 9800 miles, closing in on 10,000 and it returned today. Started cutting out again on the freeway. Would run real rough and then if continued to push hard would cut out. Later in the day, it started stalling at stoplights again too. This hasn't happened either in about 2000 miles. And I got comfortable enough, I quit carrying the dagnostic cable with me every day to be able to recalibrate on the fly. But one key cycle, and it would recatch.
Looks like the firmware upgrade is definitely necessary on all the bikes designed with this encoder as after 2-3k miles, the signal must change too much for the controller to decipher the correct positioning.
-
man, sounds like the old crankcase position sensor on my sporty being out of wack ....
now, my 2011 with "simpler" tech runs fine so far - aside that we had a glitch that has to be addressed and Zero being great sending parts to replace.
-
offthegrid: Good news is that your dealer should have the new firmware to reflash. Good confirmation though that the OG firmware is fatally flawed, even if a recalibration can temporarily fix it.
manly: the glitch seems to be related to the dual-rotor motor in the S and DS. My understanding is that the calsincos encoding determines the relative position of the two rotors for purposes of energizing the electromagnets in the motor. I wouldn't expect the single-rotor systems (XU) or the brushed Agni systems to have this problem.
-
I guess all the mystery is resolved now that the recall has been issued, but I thought I'd post just to add to the body of evidence. I have 930 miles on my 2012 S ZF6 and was going about 50mph on a cool morning at medium throttle when the motor seemed to run rough for a couple of seconds, then smooth, then rough, and then off. I pulled over, turned it on and off about 5 times (and flipped the ECO and motor kill buttons unscientifically a few times) before the bike came back to life. I got back on the road and made it to work just fine.
My dealer in Charlotte said they actually don't have the software to run the firmware upgrade yet, but that they expect to get it soon. They're also 150 miles away, so I don't know what we're going to do about that. Anyone else solve the long-distance upgrade problem?
-
I "solved" it by sending the bike back to Zero. I don't recommend that route, as it's a good week or more each direction from the East Coast.
How did you get the bike from the dealer? Was it shipped directly from Zero? The upgrade process is pretty fast, but it does require access to tools that Zero only provides to the dealer / service staff. If you can come to them, or they can come to you, or you can meet halfway in the middle..
-
Just got back from riding the 35 miles each way to my dealer to get the firmware upgrade. Really did only take them an hour to do it, but I waited an extra hour to get some more juice into my poor little ZF6 power pack ;) I didn't t notice any change at all in performance, haven't tried riding in sport mode yet.
If I had to get the bike to a dealer 150 miles away I think I would rent a van or a pickup.
-
I guess all the mystery is resolved now that the recall has been issued, but I thought I'd post just to add to the body of evidence. I have 930 miles on my 2012 S ZF6 and was going about 50mph on a cool morning at medium throttle when the motor seemed to run rough for a couple of seconds, then smooth, then rough, and then off. I pulled over, turned it on and off about 5 times (and flipped the ECO and motor kill buttons unscientifically a few times) before the bike came back to life. I got back on the road and made it to work just fine.
Did you check for the "overheat" indicator when this occurred? The Sevcon protects itself by reducing power, and if that doesn't adequately cool things, followed by shutoff if its heatsink temperature exceeds limits. The symptoms are very familiar! I noticed the indicator one day at 75MPH or so, and backed off the throttle to ~65 for a bit and the "themometer" icon disappeared. Keeping it under 75 seemed to solve my problems... [My bike is in the factory this weekend for all three recalls]
-
Quick update:
While I never had the glitch happen to me, I got the recall notice last Monday, and the service was done on Saturday.
Zero said in the notice that the motor encoder position signal may drift over the extended use of the motorcycle. If the encoder drifts too far, it could fall beyond the signal limits expected by the motor controller. This condition could cause the motor controller to shut off, resulting in the inadvertent loss of power of the motorcycle...(that sounded like they ID'd the glitch finally).
I've been waiting for the BMS waterproofing and brake-light switch service to get scheduled, so when this came up with a "We strongly urge you to contact your Zero Motorcycles dealer to make arrangements to have the service performed as soon as possible..." in bold text. I called right away.
I also got a Wire Harness Protection service done.
And my summer screen arrived the day previous so that was installed too and boy does that make a difference in air resistance happening to my person. If only it didn't add the thrumming wind-noise! I miss the quieter wind.
-
Just as 100% confirmation to the issue, I replaced the original size 4 controller which even after repeated recalibrations would eventually glitch again and again, with a new size 6 controller recently with the new firmware and the bike runs perfectly now. No cutouts, no stalling, no feeling like its running out of phase. And more power to boost too. A definite win win fix to this problem. I am sure if I send my size 4 controller off to get the firmware updated and sent back and put it back it, it probably would be fine too, but there's a lot of downtime there.
Talk to Harlan or Josh at Hollywood Electrics if you live too far from a dealer to ride your bike to get the firmware updated and you really wish you had just a little more power. or 50% more power and to have your stalling or glitch fixed all at the same time. Took me less than a hour to swap controllers and get it running, although I did spend a few hours the next day making it better.
Or if you do not want any downtime but want to keep the size 4, let me know and maybe i can loan you mine to use while yours gets updated. I'll send it off to get the firmware updated so it's ready.
-
May i ask what you meant, offthegrid, by "feeling like it's running out of phase"?
i ask because my new '12 ds9 has one slight performance "issue" that i've noticed. it's subtle but annoying and sometimes feels just potentially dangerous. i live on a road which declines a bit (i dunno, 3% perhaps) towards a stop sign at the end of the street. each day when i leave the house, i am in eco mode. the bike rides as expected right up until i begin to slow for the stop, at which point the bike slows in "stutters", as though the regen braking is slowing the bike in spurts, similar to if i were "pumping the brake" moderately to a stop. it certainly has a "periodic" feel to it, with a cycle length of perhaps a second. from the moment i stop, everything functions normally again, and all other slows/stops are normal.
anyone have any similar experience/thoughts?
thanks.
-
May i ask what you meant, offthegrid, by "feeling like it's running out of phase"?
i ask because my new '12 ds9 has one slight performance "issue" that i've noticed. it's subtle but annoying and sometimes feels just potentially dangerous. i live on a road which declines a bit (i dunno, 3% perhaps) towards a stop sign at the end of the street. each day when i leave the house, i am in eco mode. the bike rides as expected right up until i begin to slow for the stop, at which point the bike slows in "stutters", as though the regen braking is slowing the bike in spurts, similar to if i were "pumping the brake" moderately to a stop. it certainly has a "periodic" feel to it, with a cycle length of perhaps a second. from the moment i stop, everything functions normally again, and all other slows/stops are normal.
anyone have any similar experience/thoughts?
thanks.
As we like to say, they all do that. What you are experiencing is the reaction of the controller to the fact that your battery is fully charged when you leave home in the morning. As you roll down the hill with the throttle closed, the regen is activated but the controller says the batteries don't want any more juice, so it cuts the regen. Then the regen comes back on a second later, only to be cut off again. This happens over and over again until you get back on the throttle for a while. This makes the bike feel like the brakes are being gently applied on and off as you roll to a stop. After about a mile or so of riding under power the batteries will be depleted enough so that they can accept the power produced by the regen system and the feeling will go away for the rest of your ride - until the batteries are fully recharged again. This is normal for the 2012 Zero S and DS models.
If you want to avoid this feeling, you will have to be sure not to open your throttle after starting up in the morning and just let the bike roll down hill without ever touching the throttle. The regen will then not function and the bike will not have that on/off feeling until you open the throttle for the first time after leaving your garage. Until you first open the throttle, even the brakes seem to function without activating the regen.
There are two types of "glitch". A minor one that sometimes happens when you first boot up the system and the throttle will not function and the bike will not move. Shutting off the ignition and then turning it back on will solve that problem. The major "glitch", and the one that has been solved by Zero by the recall, consists of you riding along and the motor suddenly vibrating noticeably, followed by a rapid loss of power and then a complete cut off of power. This stalling can be dangerous depending upon when and where it occurs. But the bike can be brought back to normal operating function by turning the ignition off and then back on again (rebooting) and that will get you going again. This "glitch" has been appearing typically after about 2000 miles of riding, but with the new controller programming provided by the recall, it should no longer be a concern.
-
thanks so much for the explanation. that makes sense. i was wondering if it was somehow related to a full battery, and have had the bike off the plug in the garage for the past two days, waiting till my next ride to see if it happened again. with your explanation, my bet is that it won't.
i am typically dutifully plugging the bike it overnight at home, even if i'm only one bar down on the meter. the manual says to do that, but i still have a slight uneasiness because i have read people recommending not charging batteries too frequently, and storing them at, for example, about a 30-40% discharged state, to extend their life. i figure zero must know what it's doing in it's recommendations in the manual...
that being said, i guess i have hijacked this thread a bit. sorry...
-
Richard230 is correct. I originally posted about this characteristic some time back, on this forum, and warned riders to not expect regen braking if they went down a hill right after starting their ride with a fully charged battery.
An easier way to avoid the "chugging" feeling, when slowing, is to start out in SPORT mode and then a 1/2 mile, or so, down the road (assuming you are riding under power) switch to ECO, if that's what you desire for your normal riding,
Trikester
-
dahlheim,
Charging for the sake of charging is of course not a good thing, but Lithium likes being charged regularly (if you charge the batteries after you have lost 1-2 bars only is fine, and will not damage the pack.
The "storage" charge is a different animal. Charging at 30-40% of nominal capacity is recommended when leaving the bike without use for long periods of time (more than 1 week), other than that you are fine leaving the bike plugged for some days when not in use (balancing stationary charge)
-
dahlheim,
Charging for the sake of charging is of course not a good thing, but Lithium likes being charged regularly (if you charge the batteries after you have lost 1-2 bars only is fine, and will not damage the pack.
The "storage" charge is a different animal. Charging at 30-40% of nominal capacity is recommended when leaving the bike without use for long periods of time (more than 1 week), other than that you are fine leaving the bike plugged for some days when not in use (balancing stationary charge)
The manual says to leave it plugged in when not in use for long periods. The manual doesn't have a recommendation for long periods if there's no AC charging available. I've also heard 30-40% is best in that case.
After the new firmware recall work, just rode my 2012 Zero S 82 miles back from the dealer the long way. Ran perfectly. Rode it hard. Averaged 45 MPH. Used 8 of 11 bars. The glitch appears to be fixed.
-
Picked up my bike at the factory Friday after they completed all of the three recall fixes. Got an opportunity to test the weatherproofing mod, as there was fairly heavy drizzle going over the hill toward San Jose. No problems, runs fine, used up all the bars on the 32 mile mostly freeway route as expected [ZF6], and the Kill-a-Watt indicated 5800 watt-hours to recharge.
Took a ride up Mount Hamilton yesterday, 38 miles round-trip; used 5 bars going up and one coming down; 4kWhr to recharge. Again, flawless running; hard to say whether performance is significantly different, but after they adjusted the drive belt the vibration I had been noticing at around 60MPH is gone...
Will see if sustained high-speed overheating is still an issue during tomorrow's commute to Sunnyvale, traffic permitting!
=D
-
This morning I rode along wet streets, through wet dense fog, to eventually come out into bright sunshine at Alice's Restaurant, where I plugged in to my favorite 120V outlet box. This outlet was installed many years ago to light up an enclosed phone booth. Later it was used to power a soda dispensing machine. Now it is used to charge up my Zero while I am having breakfast. :) Just remember to push the little GFI reset button to turn on the juice. ;)
-
Was Arlo there on his motorcicle?
-
My dealership is about 65 miles from my house... when i got there I had one flashing bar left on the gauge. I have to leave it for a couple of days, as they don't offer service on weekends, but I should be able to pick it up soon.
Incidentally - I took the bike in for the firmware upgrade already (about 6 months ago) - and the loss of power happened again afterwards. Hopefully this time it will fix it for good.
I also asked them to waterproof the circuitboard that has been giving people trouble when riding in wet weather. I usually ride year round - it will be nice not to have to worry about getting stranded in the rain.
:)
-
Which circuit board is this? I also ride year round so any preventative measures would be useful to know.
-
The circuit board in front of the battery pack, behind the "window" with the 4 LEDs for battery status...
There are a connector at the top and at the right (in drive direction) which get sealed. The board is coated so its only a problem at the connectors. I guess they where covered during the coating :(
-
Which circuit board is this? I also ride year round so any preventative measures would be useful to know.
If your circuit board (BMS board) was not protected correctly from the factory already; you would have received a recall notice about it.