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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: emotofreak on January 24, 2012, 10:38:10 AM
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I see some folks are receiving their bikes, yet no reviews yet? Come on, spill the beans...
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Well, Ultimate Motorcycling has a few comments about the 2012 Zero line, but it sounds an awful lot like a press release to me.
http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/2012/zero-celebrates-start-of-2012-line (http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/2012/zero-celebrates-start-of-2012-line)
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I see some folks are receiving their bikes, yet no reviews yet? Come on, spill the beans...
Don't want to be redundant... ::)
After three days commuting to work, and taking brief lunch-time excursions, I'm a happy camper with my DS. Can't seem to exceed 70MPH on level pavement, which caused a need to relinquish the diamond lane a few times... The 160 MPH speedometer mocks me! ;D The optional low seat was a good choice, as my heels only touch the ground one at a time!
Compared with commuting to work daily in my VW Rabbit, I save about $5 a day in gas cost. The Kill-A-Watt meter says it costs 2 cents a mile to commute [mostly WFO], which is economically like 200MPG if gas costs $4/gallon. Around town, its even cheaper! Ten years of commuting thusly would completely pay for the thing in saved fuel, assuming gas prices stay the same that long, as if!
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After three days commuting to work, and taking brief lunch-time excursions, I'm a happy camper with my DS. Can't seem to exceed 70MPH on level pavement, which caused a need to relinquish the diamond lane a few times... The 160 MPH speedometer mocks me! ;D
Are you sure you are in "Sport" mode on the switch? I think Eco mode has limited the top speed to about 70mph on the DS. The 160 reading on the gauge is because the speedo can read Miles/hour and kilometers per hour, but there is only one set of numbers. The top speed of 88mph on the S is something like 140kph and the gauge needs to be able to indicate that for us Canadians.
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Ah, thanks; 165 km is much less ludicrous! Makes sense, as the digital indicator toggles between mph & kmph, so does the analog!?
Will see how fast it will go in "sport" mode tomorrow...
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I own a 2011 Zero S which I love, but the stock mirrors do not extend out far enough. All I could see in the mirrors was my shoulders. Luckily, there was a good replacement that the dealer put on for me. The other thing on the 2011, and it appears to be true of the 2012 as well, is that if you need the lower seat, you may have a problem getting on and off...especially off cause the rear end sticks up considerably higher than the seat. I have a standard seat which is fine for me at 5'8", but I do have to do some considerable flexing to bring my leg over that raised back end. Then I look underneath it and see all that empty space and have to ask why they would design it that way? I do wish they would drop it an inch or two and still maintain the look. Some of us aren't getting any younger....I suspect a lot of us. Young kids won't be able to afford Zeros. They buy the Ninja.
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i also wondered why they didnt make the seat lower considering the empty space underneath it and considering that the seat company "custom made" the seat for them it seems kinda weird.
we also had the problem of just seeing your own shoulders in the mirrors and added "mirror extenders" which were produced in the USA and available worldwide via e bay
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Mirror extenders huh? Sounds good. I found out about the mirror problem when I test drove one and made new mirrors part of the purchase deal. Usually I negotiate for a first service..oil change, filter, etc. but that wouldn't apply with an e-motorcycle. My dealer is AF1 Racing and they are a dealer for Vespa/Aprilia/Ducati so they borrowed a set of black triagular mirrors from another sports bike, (I think a Ducati) and they are larger and extend out just right and look like they were made for the Zero too. I still have the set of Zero mirrors and if I ever need a new set, I might go for some extenders. Thanks for that info. It would sure be nice to have a little storage or at least a good place to attach some bungie cords too. The only storage I've found is that 2-in tube in the frame where they keep the charging cord. I leave that at home and put my morning newspaper in it.
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My dealer offers a seat modification service performed by one of their staff. The take the stock seat and cut it down and re-contour it so that it is lower and more supportive. They had a modified seat on one of their 2011 demonstrators and it seemed to be a big improvement over the stock seat when I sat on it in the showroom. What is nice is that they only charge $100 for this modification. A much better value that the Zero accessory Corbin-manufactured low seat.
They also have recommended the mirror extenders and have them available for purchase. It kind of baffles me why Zero didn't run the stock mirrors out wider. I guess their test riders never look back. ::)
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The mirror issue is not just a Zero problem. The first mod I did on my Brammo was to get bar end mirrors. I got CRG lanesplitter mirrors and never have regretted spending the money on the premium product
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The mirror issue is not just a Zero problem. The first mod I did on my Brammo was to get bar end mirrors. I got CRG lanesplitter mirrors and never have regretted spending the money on the premium product
Aside the limited rear view I like the stock mirrors as they keep the bike slim -- needed to get through standing traffic on our roads quite often. On my Harley I have mounted the mirrors upside down (underneath the handlebar) and that way I stay not to wide and have an OK view. Wont work on the Zero though (and not look good either).
T
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They also have recommended the mirror extenders and have them available for purchase. It kind of baffles me why Zero didn't run the stock mirrors out wider. I guess their test riders never look back. ::)
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zero didnt run their mirrors out wider becasue they just bought off the shelf mirrors from an italian manufacturer. We told them about the mirror problem in 2009 but they couldnt care less. We told them about the seat height issue in 2009 and again they ignored the problem. Their ability to use customer feedback to improve the product is extremely poor.
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Right zap mc, cause I saw the stock Zero mirrors (minus the "Z") in a catalogue as I was looking for a replacement. They don't need to come out much, but I think they probably were chosen to keep the mirrors inside the handle bars for moving between cars in California and maybe that's why they don't put on wider mirrors. Mine extend just past the handlebars.
The other thing that would be nice, but I have no idea how to do it is to create a little storage area. I like to at least keep my ins. and regis. papers onboard. Now I have to keep them in my wallet. I use the two little holes...tubes in the frame for my storage. The charging cord was in one of those tubes, but I leave the cord at home and put other stuff in there like newspapers.
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Ultimate Motorcycleing has posted a short blurb on the 2012 DS ZF9. It doesn't say much. They don't mention the narrow mirrors, high hard seat, or lack of storage space, but here is the link anyway:
http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/2012-zero-ds-fz9-quick-look (http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/2012-zero-ds-fz9-quick-look)
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For tools and registration I put one of those little water proof plastic boxes, that backpacking stores (REI) sell, under the seat of my 2010 DS. Now I have it under the rear of the seat on my 2012 DS and there is actually more room for it. I replaced the seat mounting bolts with ones I can remove by hand in case I need to get to the box out on the road/trail. It wouldn't be good to need tools to get to the tools :-[
I was able to move, with some minor modification to the brackets, the low profile Corbin seat from my 2010 DS to the 2012 DS and the high profile seat from the 2012 to the 2010. I definitely want to ride with the lower profile seat especially in loose dirt/sand.
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For storage we sourced a rear rack for the Zero S range that just used the two seat bolts and the rear centre fender bolt to mount it. It was about £100 if anyone wants one. It was not for mega heavy loads but it would take a top box or spare helmet.
We have an 18" rear wheel for a Zero MX with chunky spokes and a road legal michelin knobbly if that will do? Not sure about the brake mountings though?
We also made some "footpegs" out of a cut off bit of plastic drain pipe that just slipped through the hole in the swingarm perfectly.
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I was able to move, with some minor modification to the brackets, the low profile Corbin seat from my 2010 DS to the 2012 DS and the high profile seat from the 2012 to the 2010. I definitely want to ride with the lower profile seat especially in loose dirt/sand.
I moved as well my Corbin seat (which cost extra ... a lot) to my 2011S. No problem. What I find though is that it slopes right down in the front part and fixes your seating position pretty much. As well when breaking you "slide" forward easily. Would like to see overall a lower seat arrangement. Gets us as well out of the wind - and more range ??
T
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zero didnt run their mirrors out wider becasue they just bought off the shelf mirrors from an italian manufacturer. We told them about the mirror problem in 2009 but they couldnt care less. We told them about the seat height issue in 2009 and again they ignored the problem. Their ability to use customer feedback to improve the product is extremely poor.
Clearly you have an axe to grind with Zero but everyone should know you are spreading misinformation.
The mirrors on both the 2011-12 are not the same mirrors that were on the 2009-10. Zero did listen to user feedback and replaced the original mirrors with Zero branded mirrors that are larger and extend out further. They work great in my opinion but I'm a small guy. I can understand how others may feel they are inadequate but then again I don't think mirrors that were any larger or extended any further out would be very practical.
The seat height has also been addressed. The suspension on both the 2011-12 is much lower than the 2009-10 and as a result the seat height as well. Additionally, they have used a different foam this year which makes it slightly more comfortable than past years.
The energy gauge has not been voltage dependent since 2010. That was the one and only year they did it that way. Since then the gauge has been accurate with the number of bars reflecting the battery capacity.
They've actually made several more changes from customer feedback including 17" rims front and back on the S model for 2011-12. This makes tire selection easier. This year for 2012 they have also changed the rake angle slightly for better handling in corners. The brakes and suspension have also improved from 2010 to 2011 and again from 2011 to 2012.
I've been working with Zero for nearly 3 years now and I have been encouraged every year as each year they have taken no small steps to improve their product. Although it may not appear so just looking at pictures, I have put thousands of miles on each model year and can say that each year there is significant improvement over the last.
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Thanks Harlan. :)
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Harlan is pretty much spot on except for the 17" rear rim. I realize he was speaking about the S model and I have the DS but I would expect that if they changed to 17" on the S they would have gone with that also on the DS, they didn't, it's still 16". I'm going to have to modify my 2012 DS to a 17" rear just like I did my 2010 DS. :(
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A Brief Review - after riding 300+ miles.
First of all - the range:
Typical of all EV manufacturers Zero lists the range that they were able to achieve in optimal conditions at low speed. As a Vectrix rider (for 3 1/2 years, 13K miles) I expected the actual range to be lower than claimed. So I wasn't disappointed. (See my post - Real World Range).
Plug-In American recommends that the claimed range be multiplied by 70% to avoid disappointment - I would recommend 50%, then results may actually exceed expectations a bit.
Secondly - the ride:
The acceleration is strong, the top speed is actually about 90% of the claimed top speed (my FZ9 tops out at 79 MPH vs. the claimed 88 MPH). I find the bike very comfortable - I was pleasantly surprised at how well the bike takes the bumps. Cornering is stable and precise. Braking is strong and reliable. I like the strong regen braking when in ECO mode. The seat, despite being narrow - is not hard, and although high - it is not overly so (I can reach the ground with my toes). I hadn't heard about the lower seat option - until reading today's posts.
Third - the design:
The bike is light and visually appealing. I get compliments from everyone that sees it. I like how the cord fits inside the tube in the frame. The fuses and connectors are easily accessible. The LED panel inside the lower-right-hand front cover, at the bottom of the battery pack is upside down (or the diagram in the owner's manual is upside down).
The 120V charging socket is open and exposed to the elements, just behind the front tire. This seems like an oversight - I cut the end off of an old cord and used it to cover up the hole.
The only thing I can see in my mirrors are my shoulders (I am 5' 7", 155 lbs.) - I'll have to check out the mirror extensions.
The gauges are clear and intuitive (other than the decision to display eleven bars on the fuel gauge... eleven? really?) I like the clean, simple design of the speedometer and fuel gauge (well, except for the eleven-bar thing... did I mention that already?) After the 9th bar disappears the last two bars begin flashing on and off to let you know it's time to plug in. A simple error indicator next to the odometer lets you know something is wrong and the owner's manual explains how to diagnose the problem more specifically.
The Extras:
I ordered the storage bags - which you will need since there is no storage on the bike. I haven't received them yet, but I'll post when I get them. Ditto for the windshield and the high-speed charger. Nine hours is a long time to wait for charging (the standard setup), so the high-speed charger will make the bike much more practical on longer rides. The J772 adapter is supposed to arrive in a couple of months - this will open up many more charging opportunities. Zero's decision to offer this option should be applauded - it puts the bike at the cutting edge of the two-wheeled EV market.
So much for a "brief" review... now I'm anxious to learn about the experiences of other 2012 Zero owners!
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I'll be providing lots of comments about my ownership of a ZF9 S - once I finally get one. As usual when I order a new model I wait and wait. I waited 18 months for an Empulse to arrive. Still waiting for an email on that, too.
(I think the weather is too nice right now for the Zero to arrive. It is waiting for the rain to return. ::) )
Thanks for your latest report oobflyer. :)
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A Brief Review - after riding 300+ miles.
First of all - the range:
Typical of all EV manufacturers Zero lists the range that they were able to achieve in optimal conditions at low speed. As a Vectrix rider (for 3 1/2 years, 13K miles) I expected the actual range to be lower than claimed. So I wasn't disappointed. (See my post - Real World Range).
Plug-In American recommends that the claimed range be multiplied by 70% to avoid disappointment - I would recommend 50%, then results may actually exceed expectations a bit.
75-79 mph will use a fair bit more energy per mile than 70 mph, which is a fair bit above 55 mph.
I'm interested to see if the range improves over time. Zero is claiming 43 miles at 70 mph and 60 miles at 55 mph (based upon XU's power consumption). Are your range observations to the point of discomfort / end of your trip, or to the point of performance degradation? I believe the EPA's tests are performed until the bike is no longer able to maintain the requested speed, which might be a little beyond the point the flashing energy indicators turn on.
The acceleration is strong, the top speed is actually about 90% of the claimed top speed (my FZ9 tops out at 79 MPH vs. the claimed 88 MPH). I find the bike very comfortable - I was pleasantly surprised at how well the bike takes the bumps. Cornering is stable and precise. Braking is strong and reliable. I like the strong regen braking when in ECO mode.
ZF9 instead of FZ9. Unless you're riffing on the yamaha FZ bikes.
Does Eco vs Sport mode affect top speed? Are you going by indicated top speed or have you tested the speedometer accuracy with a GPS? I assume your top speed tests are performed on level ground without a headwind..
Can you hold a steady 75 mph, or is the sustained top speed lower as well? How long can you hold 79 mph before it falls back to 75?
The J772 adapter is supposed to arrive in a couple of months - this will open up many more charging opportunities. Zero's decision to offer this option should be applauded - it puts the bike at the cutting edge of the two-wheeled EV market.
Good to hear the 2012 bikes have a J1772 option, I didn't see it in the options list. I think the onboard charger can supply 1kw regardless of voltage, so J1772 won't charge faster than a standard 120v outlet; but the EV industry in the US is rapidly settling upon J1772 for parking-access charging. It's the future for the next five years before wireless charging is standardized.
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Hollywood Electrics said "Clearly you have an axe to grind with Zero but everyone should know you are spreading misinformation."
I disagree, I speak as I find, good or bad.
A person with a Zero Dealership could also be said to have an axe to grind as well surely?
But I wont be stooping to personal comments to make my point as the facts should do that on their own. At the end of the day i can only speak as I find based on what I observe either good or bad and not in anticipation of future sales.
1) Mirrors
Zero bought off the shelf mirrors from an Italian company in 2009/2010, I know because i saw the boxes. If they had sucessfully reacted to customer feedback would people still be complaining about the mirrors? I doubt it. Either they didnt react to customer feedback or they reacted inadequately. In either case it is not confidence inspiring really.
2) Gauge
You also stated "the energy gauge has not been voltage dependent since 2010. That was the one and only year they did it that way." They did it in 2009 as well as that gauge sagged when used hard as well.
3) Seat Height
There were journalists that could not ride the pre production versions of the Zero S and this was made known to Zero top brass at the press launch. However the seat height remained the same on the production bikes in 2009 and 2010 so that is 2 years of not acting on feedback, again, Zero not in a hurry to remedy the problem I would say. The bike still has an unexplained gap under the seat that could be used to drop the seat height to more usable levels even as an option but it does not seem to be happening any time soon.
4) Pillion passengers
Many people have asked to be able to carry passengers, what have Zero done ? Nothing.
Do I need to Carry on? ...
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My recollection of the information contained in the 2012 Zero's owners manual is that a passenger can be carried on the bike with a accessory kit, available from Zero. I assume it contains a set of foot pegs and a passenger grab strap or bar. Although you and your passenger are limited to a maximum weight of 340 pounds. I have no explanation why this is an extra-cost item, though. ???
But then I also can not explain why BMW sells motorcycles with hard, uncomfortable, seats and then offers a "comfort" seat as an accessory for an additional $500. Why not just install a comfort seat on the stock motorcycle? Now let me see...... ::)
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Hollywood Electrics said "Clearly you have an axe to grind with Zero but everyone should know you are spreading misinformation."
I disagree, I speak as I find, good or bad.
A person with a Zero Dealership could also be said to have an axe to grind as well surely?
But I wont be stooping to personal comments to make my point as the facts should do that on their own. At the end of the day i can only speak as I find based on what I observe either good or bad and not in anticipation of future sales.
1) Mirrors
Zero bought off the shelf mirrors from an Italian company in 2009/2010, I know because i saw the boxes. If they had sucessfully reacted to customer feedback would people still be complaining about the mirrors? I doubt it. Either they didnt react to customer feedback or they reacted inadequately. In either case it is not confidence inspiring really.
2) Gauge
You also stated "the energy gauge has not been voltage dependent since 2010. That was the one and only year they did it that way." They did it in 2009 as well as that gauge sagged when used hard as well.
3) Seat Height
There were journalists that could not ride the pre production versions of the Zero S and this was made known to Zero top brass at the press launch. However the seat height remained the same on the production bikes in 2009 and 2010 so that is 2 years of not acting on feedback, again, Zero not in a hurry to remedy the problem I would say. The bike still has an unexplained gap under the seat that could be used to drop the seat height to more usable levels even as an option but it does not seem to be happening any time soon.
4) Pillion passengers
Many people have asked to be able to carry passengers, what have Zero done ? Nothing.
Do I need to Carry on? ...
You can continue to speak freely and I will continue to correct you.
The 2009 Zero models you may have seen were pre-production, shipped in limited quantities to dealers as demo bikes. 2010 was the first year the bike was widely available to consumers. If you want to include all the prototypes as well, you're right, 2010 was not the only year for a few of those issues I mentioned.
As for the mirrors, I stand by my statement that the problem has been addressed. I spend a little extra time with our customers to make sure the mirrors are adjusted properly for them. If they are incorrectly adjusted, I'm sure it's quite possible you won't see anything past your shoulders. Since there is another member on this forum whose dealer didn't even point out the eco/sport switch, it wouldn't surprise me to know that there are other dealers who don't spend the extra time with the customer to properly adjust their mirrors and therefore they are not setup optimally.
I have a good friend who is 5'3" (160cm) and he has not trouble riding the Zero S, even with the standard seat although he does prefer the lower Corbin Seat. For anyone who still has trouble with the seat height, there are other adjustments that can be made to accommodate them.
Zero has a solution for those who wish to carry a passenger. This is one of their press images, you would have seen had you spent any time actually researching this product you claim to know so much about. As Richard has already stated, there is a footpeg and grab bar kit available.
(http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/press-2012/small/s/location/2012_zero-s_action-03_1680x1200_press.jpg)
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If that is the case then the bike will have needed to be homologated by Zero at the factory for use as a two person machine which entails another set of braking and load tests. The fact they are selling those kits would seem to suggest that it is now homologated as a pillion bike which would be one up on the Brammo. Surprised that they did not make more of an issue of this as it is not widely known and would be a good selling point.
I have never claimed to "know so much about this product", that is only your inference, I am merely sharing my experience, hopefully for others benefit, and trying to learn by other peoples experiences, I tend to find this is more meaningful and accurate than press blurb and hype, be it in type or picture.
The bikes I have had were certainly not bought or offered as "pre production" models in 2009 and 2010, however if Zero were doing what you say and shipping prototypes instead of proper production machines then that may explain some of the issues.
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Generally 5'3" would be too short for a sport bike. Can they put their feet down flat? As seat hts. go for sport bikes, the Zero S seat ht. of 30.8" for the low seat option is still low. The only one lower than that I know about is the Ninja 250 at 30.5. One advantage of the Zero is that the seat gives a little so once you do get on, you reduce the ht. by an inch or so, plus it is narrow.
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Since there is another member on this forum whose dealer didn't even point out the eco/sport switch, it wouldn't surprise me to know that there are other dealers who don't spend the extra time with the customer to properly adjust their mirrors and therefore they are not setup optimally.
I guess that would be me. You are right Harlan - the dealership knew nothing at all about the bike. When I asked simple questions, like, "How can I tell the bike is charging after I plug it in?", the salesman had no idea. I expected some sort of flashing light on the fuel gauge, but I eventually found the little LED window myself.
I also had to adjust the "dashboard" so that it tilts out at a sharper angle, otherwise I cannot see the top part of the gauge. I can't imagine that anyone actually sat on the bike and looked at the gauge before tightening the screws - it would only have worked for someone much shorter than me (it was very easy to adjust when I got home). As far as the mirrors... there was no discussion about adjusting them, but to be clear - I checked carefully and the only adjustment possible is the angle of tilt forward (up vertically - or down towards the ground) - there does not appear to be a way to extend the mirrors out further towards the handlebars - so I quite literally cannot see behind me while riding. The only way I can use the mirrors is to lean way out to one side and look in the opposite mirror. I'm not trying to cause any more controversy - I didn't even realize there was an issue with the mirrors in the past. But I don't feel safe when I can't see behind me. I will have to extend them, or replace them.
I don't see this as a make or break issue, however. Many people replace their stock mirrors for all kinds of reasons.
the onboard charger can supply 1kw regardless of voltage, so J1772 won't charge faster than a standard 120v outlet
Is this true? I thought that the whole point of the 240V J1772 standard was to be able to charge more quickly.
Does Eco vs Sport mode affect top speed?
No, the acceration is slower and the regen-braking is stronger, but the top speed is the same.
Can you hold a steady 75 mph, or is the sustained top speed lower as well? How long can you hold 79 mph before it falls back to 75?
Yes, the bike accelerates quickly to 75 MPH and cruises comfortably at that speed. On the way home today I looked down to see my speed at 78 MPH. But, beyond that... there just isn't any more power to push it any faster. I didn't try to sustain the top speed for more than a few seconds, since it had clearly reached its limit. I'll be picking up my windshield this weekend - I'll check the top speed again with the windshield installed - with the hope that it will be a bit more aerodynamic.
Meanwhile - I rode another 70 miles today, flying on the freeway, passing cars and trucks with my EV grin hidden inside my helmet. This thing is amazing :)
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One fix for the stock mirrors might be add those stick-on fisheye/bubbles that you can buy at Napa, Autozone, O'Reillys, even Walmart that show the blind spot.
I'm surprised the new S didn't go right up to 88 mph. Programming error? My 2011 seems programmed to go 67, accelerates fast right up to 67, then no further, not that you would want to ride at 88 probably, but I would occasionally if I could.
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I own a 2011 Zero S which I love, but the stock mirrors do not extend out far enough. All I could see in the mirrors was my shoulders. Luckily, there was a good replacement that the dealer put on for me. The other thing on the 2011, and it appears to be true of the 2012 as well, is that if you need the lower seat, you may have a problem getting on and off...especially off cause the rear end sticks up considerably higher than the seat. I have a standard seat which is fine for me at 5'8", but I do have to do some considerable flexing to bring my leg over that raised back end. Then I look underneath it and see all that empty space and have to ask why they would design it that way? I do wish they would drop it an inch or two and still maintain the look. Some of us aren't getting any younger....I suspect a lot of us. Young kids won't be able to afford Zeros. They buy the Ninja.
Do the short-guy-shuffle:
Sidestand down, stand on left and right peg, swing right leg over bike, unclimb via left peg. Opposite for climbing about. After watching some of my dualsport buddies that were height challenged do this, it makes sense, especially off road or off camber situations. 8)
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I forgot to mention I weigh about 200 lbs. too, so I'm not sure the side stand could take all that weight. Do you think it would be OK? Anyway, once I practiced a few times and became confident the kickstand was not going to move (with the hand brake on) when mounting and dismounting, it works fine. Dismounting, I put my R foot on the peg and my left on the ground with the stand down and brake engaged, then swing the R leg over. That works well. I will remember the short-guy shuffle though. I never heard or saw that before, cause I would remember seeing something like that. I put a couple of Scholls cushions in my shoes to give me about a half inch advantage. I tried 3, but then my heel kept coming out of my shoes. I have had a couple of incidents involving kickstands over the years..not being fully down and forward before getting off and also getting on while parked downhill and the kickstand releasing before I was quite on the bike. I was young, foolish, impetuous, inexperienced and... no wait, that happened just last year. One advantage of the Zero is that the weight is light enough to be a little more forgiving. Once a heavy bike starts to fall, there is no stopping it. Thanks for that sharing that technique.
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Are your range observations to the point of discomfort / end of your trip, or to the point of performance degradation?
This is what I've been doing:
I've been riding to work, which is about 35 miles each way. I've been getting on the freeway, accelerating to a specific speed, and maintaining that speed until I arrive. Each leg of the trip I rode at a different speed to compare the ranges. Then I counted how many miles/bar that I got at each speed, then I extrapolated that number by multiplying by eleven.
For example - yesterday I rode at a steady speed of 60 MPH for 32 miles (on the freeway) - burning through seven bars. Thirty-two divided by 7 = 4.6 miles/bar. 4.6 x 11 = 50.3 miles.
I haven't checked the accuracy of the speedometer - but I'm sure it's in the ballpark, based on the flow of traffic around me. I can check it with the GPS though - to confirm the accuracy - maybe this weekend.
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If that is the case then the bike will have needed to be homologated by Zero at the factory for use as a two person machine which entails another set of braking and load tests. The fact they are selling those kits would seem to suggest that it is now homologated as a pillion bike which would be one up on the Brammo. Surprised that they did not make more of an issue of this as it is not widely known and would be a good selling point.
I would assume Zero has done all required testing to make sure the bike works with a pillion passenger.
Brammo claims the Empulse will have room for a passenger as well. Still no final specs or production schedule, so that information is tentative at best.
the onboard charger can supply 1kw regardless of voltage, so J1772 won't charge faster than a standard 120v outlet
Is this true? I thought that the whole point of the 240V J1772 standard was to be able to charge more quickly.
J1772 really has two purposes: provide more power at a higher voltage than the 110v outlets in the US and elsewhere; and provide a safe, rugged smart connector. It provides two-way communication between charging station and vehicle and allows vehicle manufacturers to support some advanced capabilities like vehicle-to-grid.
The 2011 bikes have a 1kw Delta-Q QuiQ onboard charger, and support a second offboard charger to charge at a combined 2kw.
The 2012 bikes support up to 3 offboard chargers for a combined 4kw charging power ($600/ea offboard charger, requires a separate 110v circuit per charger for maximum power). When plugged into J1772 you'll only get 1kw output power from the onboard charger.
Can you hold a steady 75 mph, or is the sustained top speed lower as well? How long can you hold 79 mph before it falls back to 75?
Yes, the bike accelerates quickly to 75 MPH and cruises comfortably at that speed. On the way home today I looked down to see my speed at 78 MPH. But, beyond that... there just isn't any more power to push it any faster. I didn't try to sustain the top speed for more than a few seconds, since it had clearly reached its limit. I'll be picking up my windshield this weekend - I'll check the top speed again with the windshield installed - with the hope that it will be a bit more aerodynamic.
Meanwhile - I rode another 70 miles today, flying on the freeway, passing cars and trucks with my EV grin hidden inside my helmet. This thing is amazing :)
I'd love to see a riding log if you keep one - notes on distance, energy used (at the pack if the S gives that information or at the wall if you have a kill-a-watt), average speeds, etc.
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I've been riding to work, which is about 35 miles each way. I've been getting on the freeway, accelerating to a specific speed, and maintaining that speed until I arrive. Each leg of the trip I rode at a different speed to compare the ranges. Then I counted how many miles/bar that I got at each speed, then I extrapolated that number by multiplying by eleven.
For example - yesterday I rode at a steady speed of 60 MPH for 32 miles (on the freeway) - burning through seven bars. Thirty-two divided by 7 = 4.6 miles/bar. 4.6 x 11 = 50.3 miles.
35 miles each way, including 32 miles on the freeway both ways? I assume you're charging at work!
I expect 60 mph will use around 140 wh/mile, 32 miles uses around 4.5 kwh, or about 57% of the pack. 7 bars of 11 is about 64%, so that's about right.
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Those little bulls-eye stick-on plastic mirror-things are pretty much useless. I have tried them on several of my bikes over the years and they only work a little if placed at the very end of the mirror surface. There are some plastic mini-mirrors that can rotate on a shaft that sticks to your mirror and they work much better for slightly more cost. However, my recommendation is to buy some mirror extenders. Most motorcycle or accessory shops have them and my Zero dealer recommends them and has them in stock. They say that the extenders fit the Zero mirrors well and extend the mirrors out to where they let you see traffic behind you much better. They quoted me a price of around $25, as I recall. Replacing the entire mirrors would cost a lot more than that.
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Gotta say it again, the best investment are these CRG Bar end "lane splitter" mirrors. They fold up so that you're no wider than your bar ends if you're really lane-splitting, and the fold-up mechanism makes it handy parking in tight places, too.
Amazon source of CRG mirrors. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0037B90OQ/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0026ISQFU&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0846GYRPKQ24FKWWN3FN)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51q2UWukfFL._SL500_AA300_.gif)
I have them on the left and right side of my handlebars and got rid of the stock mirrors.
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Well, I got the call today from Mission Motorcycles in Daly City that my 2012 Zero S had arrived. I picked it up this afternoon and rode it the 15 miles home. I am quite happy with the bike so far. The seat is more comfortable than the one on the 2011 S that I test rode. The mirrors are OK. They show about half of my body and half of the traffic behind me. Not too bad and I have a set of mirror extenders on order. The right mirror needs to be repositioned upward though. I'll take care of that tomorrow. The seat height is also OK. I have a 30" inseam and am able to place the balls of both of my feet on the ground at stops. Much better than the DS seating arrangement.
I rode home in Eco mode and had no trouble keeping up with traffic, which was going 60 in the 55 zone. The bike used about 2 bars on the 15 mile trip, but that included climbing four hills. The regen provides about half the drag as the regen on my GPR-S did. While not as noticeable when slowing down as I had expected, it is pretty seamless and doesn't get in your way. The bike is charging up now and I am surprised that it doesn't make any noise when charging. My GPR-S used to be quite noisy when charging as the charger's fan attempted to keep things cool.
I didn't get much of a chance to check out the handling, but the few corners that I rode around proved that the bike is stable and secure when corning around a street intersection. The ride was quite smooth when riding on broken-up freeway pavement. I was quite surprised, as I expected that the fancy suspension would be set up stiff, as is typical for sport bikes with similar fully-adjustable suspensions.
I am going to take it easy for a while as I get a feel for how the bike will handle distances on my usual rides. I plan to talk to the owner of Alice's Restaurant on Sunday to see if they will let me charge up while I am hanging out at Skylonda. There appears to be an electrical outlet next to the telephone kiosk across from the gas station and another outlet behind the station across from the women's bathroom. :)
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Congratulations, Richard. Looking forward to hearing more about your new bike.
There appears to be an electrical outlet next to the telephone kiosk across from the gas station and another outlet behind the station across from the women's bathroom.
Smooth operator, as always. :D
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Congrats Richard! You probably mentioned it elsewhere - but did you get the "6" or the "9" -red or black? Which accessories did you order?
I am going to take it easy for a while
... Yeah, that was my plan too ;)
Last night I rode up to top speed... again it stopped accelerating at 79 MPH, but I leaned forward and the speedometer inched up to 81 MPH - woo hoo - a new record! ;)
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I'd love to see a riding log if you keep one - notes on distance, energy used (at the pack if the S gives that information or at the wall if you have a kill-a-watt), average speeds, etc.
The bike doesn't provide any info on energy used, other than the ELEVEN bar fuel gauge (11 bars? Really?)
As far as average speeds - I've been riding to work at different speeds to map out the range vs. speed capabilities. After that I'll just ride with the flow of traffic (probably around 70 MPH on the freeway). Around town I've been riding aggressively - I even did some lane splitting yesterday (I rarely do that any more because of the SUV epidemic and their huge mirrors that nearly touch each other across lanes). Since the S is quite narrow - lane-splitting is less scary.
I don't have a kill-a-watt monitor... curious - what do you use the info for?
My odometer currently reads 440 miles - I got the bike two weeks ago - so I'm riding at a rate of around 200 miles/week.
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I bought a red ZF9. I'll take photos after the sun comes up.
I also bought the Zero accessory windshield, which appears to be identical to the Slipstreamer Spitfire windshield that I have on my Triumph Bonneville, except that instead of the Slipstreamer decal on the front it has a Zero decal on the front of the windshield. The windshield is a nice model (the one on my Triumph has been all over the West coast for the past 6 years and 24,000 miles and still looks like new), it is just large enough to block the wind from your chest, while leaving your helmet in the breeze. It can be removed in seconds by turning two wingnuts, should you want to ride naked. ;) I didn't like the way the shop installed it as it was too vertical for my taste and last night I fiddled with it for a while and managed to produce a little more of a rake to the windshield. However, this is a pretty flat shield and I don't expect it to make a noticeable difference in reducing aerodynamic drag, but it will make your ride more comfortable.
When I picked up my bike, I was given a small tool and instructions showing how to adjust the mirrors and tighten the with the tool. I also discovered that using an Allen wrench on the lower pivot, you can rotate the mirrors forward so that they show more of a view behind you, instead of a view of the ground as my mirrors did.
In addition to the mirror extenders, I also ordered the belt tension gauge that is shown in the owner's manual and is needed to check the belt tension.
If I had to make a change to the design of the Zero, I would install a clear window over the charge condition inspection port and a removable cover over the charging cord plug. Both of those openings on the lower front of the bike look like dirt and moisture collectors to me.
I am very impressed with the Zero's frame and kick stand. Both items appear to be very robust, well designed and well manufactured. However, I would like to have more of a rear rack behind the seat. The little "rack" behind the seat looks nice but doesn't look to practical for carrying stuff. I have a lot of soft luggage laying around and I will have to see what I have that will fit the bike. When I come up with some ideas, I'll let you know.
I am not sure if I can download the large files from my camera on this site. If I can't, I'll post them on el moto and supply a link. I plan on taking closeup photos of certain parts of the bike to show some of its more interesting details. Hopefully, I can get around to that later this afternoon. Where is that sun, anyway? ;D
I hooked up my Kill A Watt meter to the charger and last night it charged (with two bars down) at a rate of 900 watts for a couple of hours. It stopped bulk charging at 2.3 kWh and went into the flashing BMS mode. I left it hooked up all night and the Kill A Watt said that it continued to charge slowly, at about 12 watts, for a total of 2.41 kWh when I pulled the plug after about 12 hours of balancing/trickle charging. That Kill A Watt thing is fun. I have seen them on sale for under $30 recently.
More comments will be forthcoming as I get more experience with my 2012 ZF9 Zero S.
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Sounds good. Should be a much more refined bike than your GPR-S : )
Maybe install a plexiglass cover on a pivot to cover the ports. Or see if they're actually a problem, I guess. The Delta-Q QuiQ charger is pretty much immune to weather, so shouldn't be a functional problem there.
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Sounds good. Should be a much more refined bike than your GPR-S : )
Maybe install a plexiglass cover on a pivot to cover the ports. Or see if they're actually a problem, I guess. The Delta-Q QuiQ charger is pretty much immune to weather, so shouldn't be a functional problem there.
http://www.delta-q.com/products/quiq.shtml (http://www.delta-q.com/products/quiq.shtml)
Just downloaded the operating manual and spec sheet pdf's! =D
In addition to using a cut-off power-cord end to protect the charging connector, I added a shrink-tubing shroud that covers the on-board connector shell when installed. Looking for an attractive tether to secure it to the bike while charging...
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Well the photos that I took today are just too large for this system to accept (192KB maximum and mine are about 600KB each). Later tonight I will start a new thread on El Moto and post my photos there. A couple of things I did today was to adjust my mirrors to where I can see something behind me. I also tightened up the mirror tension with the tool I was provided (sort of like the kind of tool that is used to open wristwatch case backs).
I found a Rev Pak seat pack that fits on the seat and fastens under the seat with removable straps. I have had that thing for a few years and it was sitting in a pile of soft luggage that I have retired in the past. I also have a set of "hard" soft bags that sling over the seat. That should work too, but I need to place some paint protector plastic over the tail's finish to protect the paint before using the bags. Still, a backpack might be the neatest way to carry stuff.
On my ride today, the wing nuts holding the windshield supports came loose while I was riding and had to be tightened on the fly. I might use some thread lock to make them more secure. Also the windshield needs better support to keep it from fluttering. I plan to add some foam between the lower part of the shield and the instrument panel to give it some more support.
Right now I am wondering if I can make the 40 mile trip to Alice's tomorrow and back on a full charge. If I don't take the Zero, I will take my Yamaha FZ1. If the temperature drops below 40 tomorrow morning I will probably take the IC bike, as it will be warmer for me and it works well at low temperatures, which might not be the case with the Zero.
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The photos of my 2012 Zero S can be found here:
http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?2019-2012-ZF9-Zero-S-review&p=25658&posted=1#post25658 (http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?2019-2012-ZF9-Zero-S-review&p=25658&posted=1#post25658)
I forgot to mention that Progressive Insurance added the bike to my current policy for a premium of only $29 a year. But I have every discount they offer, including a multi-bike policy and am only insured for 250K/500K liability. Since I pay cash for my motorcycles, I self-insure myself for all other potential problems and so far have not had to collect from myself in 50 years of riding. This has saved me a whole lot of money over the years, which I plow back into my motorcycle purchases. :)
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Well the photos that I took today are just too large for this system to accept (192KB maximum and mine are about 600KB each).
Image size increased to 600 KB. Post away! :D
Also, just added this post to the forum...
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=1932.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=1932.0)
It will explain how to upload pics to Flickr and then add them to your post. This way if the 600 KB limit gets in the way your covered.
The 2012 S looks sharp! Congrats again!
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I was quite surprised, as I expected that the fancy suspension would be set up stiff, as is typical for sport bikes with similar fully-adjustable suspensions.
Do Zero still recommend setting the "sag" on the rear?
Maybe the dealer should have brought your attention to the fact that you have the ability to dial the bike in for your own weight by adjusting the preload of the rear spring so it is in the optimum range of travel for the riders weight. This is standard procedure for most Motocross bikes.
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Do Zero still recommend setting the "sag" on the rear?
Maybe the dealer should have brought your attention to the fact that you have the ability to dial the bike in for your own weight by adjusting the preload of the rear spring so it is in the optimum range of travel for the riders weight. This is standard procedure for most Motocross bikes.
My dealer didn't discuss setting up the suspension for my weight, but the owner's manual goes over that process in some detail. You just need time and a helper to do the job. In the meantime, the suspension seems to be working OK, at least in the garage. I am not sure what is going on at high speeds, though. When riding over 50 mph on bumpy back roads, I was experiencing some wiggling in the bars when corning that was making me kind of nervous. I am hoping I can dial that out with suspension adjustments, but the suspension is pretty complicated and it would be easy to make thing worse by just turning dials randomly. I just haven't had the time to fool with it. However, the handling is fine around town, it is just not very stable in the woods. Perhaps the bike's light weight and short wheelbase reduces its stability, compared to my BMWs, my Triumph and my FZ1, all of which weigh around 500 pounds and have conservative chassis geometry. I should also mention that my Suzuki SV650 also feels nervous to me under the same conditions, so maybe I am just not used to the quick handling of a supermoto-style bike.
Finally, the bike comes with IRC Road Winner tires and those are not exactly top-of-the-line rubber. It has also been my experience that adjusting the air pressure a pound or two plus or minus can make a big difference with tubeless tires on lightweight bikes.
Moving on to charging: Yesterday I arrived home from my ride having used approximately half of the battery pack capacity according to the "fuel" gauge. That should be about 4 kWh, assuming that the pack has a usable capacity of 7.2 kWh (80% of 9kWh). The on-board 110V charger (charging at a maximum input of 950 watts according to my Kill A Watt), took almost exactly 6 hours to complete bulk charging. That would seem to indicate that a full charge would require 12 hours, instead of the 9 hours claimed in Zero's specifications. That might mean that the battery pack has a slightly greater capacity than rated, or that the charger efficiency is lower than expected, or the "fuel" gauge is not quite accurate, or.....? Balancing/trickle charging sucked up another 0.12 kWh during the next 12 hours after bulk charging was completed.
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Here is an owner's manual comment. I finally got around to printing out the 120-page owner's manual that is installed on the flash drive that was connected to the spare key. Then I compared it with the owner's manual that I obtained last month when the DS first arrived at my dealer. The new manual has 10 more pages than the older manual, but I checked every page this afternoon and the only thing different, besides a couple of random words, is the useful index at the back of the document. This is what is new. So if you happen to have the manual revised in January, instead of the one revised on February 1, all you are missing is the index. The meat is still the same.
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I finally discovered how to reduce the size of my camera pictures. Attached are some photos of my 2012 ZF9 Zero S.
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Nice pics, Richard! I'm glad you're riding electric again. Out of the universe of past EV owners who have a right to not ever want to go there again, you were #1. Your history with the older bike (was it a GPRS?) was enough of a disappointment to keep you skeptical for a long time. Kudos for making the leap again.
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I got sucked into two GPR-S bikes. One melted down and the other is dying a slow battery death.
My friend just sent me his photos of me and my Zero up at Alice's Restaurant last Sunday morning. The bike is being charged via an extension cord plugged into a wall outlet at the back of their gas station (seems appropriate, somehow).
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I have discovered another advantage of my Zero, compared with an IC motorcycle. It is a lot easier to clean. :)
I just finished washing and waxing my bike and it was much easier and quicker than doing the same thing on my gas-powered motorcycles. The Zero doesn't have any chrome to spot, no exhaust pipes that tend to get grungy with baked on dirt and it has large flat surfaces with few little nooks and crannies that are difficult to clean, which is typical of IC bikes.
What this means is you can keep the Zero looking nicer and spend less time doing it - resulting in more time to ride! ;D
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how are they for rusting bolts now?
earlier models suffered badly from rusting fastners.
we always did a light spray of WD40 after washing to try and reduce this
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how are they for rusting bolts now?
earlier models suffered badly from rusting fastners.
we always did a light spray of WD40 after washing to try and reduce this
I am having trouble finding any bolts on my bike to rust (it seems to have more plastic and plastic fasteners than bolts). In any case, the way I store and maintain my motorcycles, I haven't had any problems with rusting bolts since owning a 1978 Yamaha SR500. ::)
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Motorcycle.com has a review of the 2012 ZF9 DS.
http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/2012-zero-ds-review-91239.html (http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/2012-zero-ds-review-91239.html)
They get a couple things wrong (list the ZF9 range but the ZF6 weight, and quote a $595 price for the 4x quickcharge accessory) but it's a good read nonetheless.
They also set the bike up (http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php?g2_view=largephotos.Largephotos&g2_itemId=325658) on a dyno.
(http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php/d/325658-2/2012-zero-ds-vs-2010-zero-s.jpg)
The new motor offers about 25% more power up to 50 mph, but as the 2010 bike falls off in power the 2012 bike offers +100% or more.
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The dyno chart compares the 2010 with the 2012. As the 2011 has basically the same Agni motor one would assume that it has the same performance ? From riding I found that the 2011 handles better due to larger 17" wheels and better brakes.
T
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Thanks for posting that link, Protomech. That is the first test/review that I have seen for the 2012 Zero models. :) I am going to read it tonight.
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Protomech, you always have such intelligent posts. Thanks!
An additional data point, I have dyno'd a stock 2012 Honda CBR 250 at only 24HP or so. Supposedly the Ninja 250 is only a smidge better. So we now have electric motorcycles with double the torque and more peak power, and over a much broader power band, than the latest and greatest 250's. Truly a historic moment. Next up? 450cc parity. Maybe even next year. Then 600cc in a couple more years :) In a decade or less we'll be playing with the liter bikes :p
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I just returned from having myself and my Zero S photographed for their feature story on the Zero, which will be in the April issue of City Bike magazine. ;D
Attached are three photos that I took in between the formal photo shoot.
I was told that my Zero and I might be on the cover of the magazine - but if I was them, I wouldn't put me on the cover. I don't look all that cute. ::)
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Here is one with the trolley car gone. Fortunately, it missed my bike when it took off. ;)
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And then we checked out the local wind-power plant.
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Just test rode the Zero DS and placed my order for a 2012 Zero DS ZF9, waiting impatiently till next week!
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Richard230, that is cool that your bike is in City Bike! Should be some great exposure for Zero.
Just test rode the Zero DS and placed my order for a 2012 Zero DS ZF9, waiting impatiently till next week!
Congrats expevride!!! Let us know what you think of the DS.
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As I was performing my usual Sunday morning breakfast visit to Alice's Restaurant today, what should I see but a 2012 Zero S drive around the lot and come to rest near me. I immediately pointed out the stealth power supply (see attached photo) to the rider so he could plug in and then had an interesting 30-minute conversation with him (while he rubbed his hands and tried to warm them up).
It turns out that he was a Zero factory employee who was on his way to a Zero demonstration at a local school and was stopping at the restaurant for a bite to eat. I mentioned that his bike needed some heated grips and he said that they were testing a bike with heated grips and they worked well and used relatively little power (compared to the drive system). He also mentioned that they were working with various after-market suppliers to develop a range of accessories, including saddlebags. It sounds like Zero is really working hard to expand their market share and satisfy their customers. I continue to be impressed with this company. :)
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After Zero diagnosed and fixed my ECO mode shutdown problem, on my 2012 DS, I immediately went to work on the rear wheel to 17" modification & chain drive, so I hadn't ridden it to check out the repair. I just got it back together last night and rode to a vintage bike meet today (I know it isn't vintage). I rode it in ECO mode and no problems, so the repair was good.
I like my 2010 DS but I'm even happier with the 2012 DS! Even though it's 20 pounds heavier than the 2010 it seems to handle even better (if that's possible) and I don't notice the additional weight. It got a lot of attention at the monthly bike meet. People would ask; "how quiet is it"? My answer is; "the new dual sport knobbies I put on it make the loudest sound I hear". 8)
Trikester
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Motorcycle.com has a review of the 2012 ZF9 DS.
http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/2012-zero-ds-review-91239.html (http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/2012-zero-ds-review-91239.html)
They get a couple things wrong (list the ZF9 range but the ZF6 weight, and quote a $595 price for the 4x quickcharge accessory) but it's a good read nonetheless.
They also set the bike up (http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php?g2_view=largephotos.Largephotos&g2_itemId=325658) on a dyno.
(http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php/d/325658-2/2012-zero-ds-vs-2010-zero-s.jpg)
The new motor offers about 25% more power up to 50 mph, but as the 2010 bike falls off in power the 2012 bike offers +100% or more.
The 2010 S uses an Agni75 motor. IIRC.
The 2012 S uses a modified Motenergy ME0913 motor.
The x axis for the motorcycle.com dyno plot is kind of screwed up. I've pulled their numbers into a spreadsheet (will attach later) and produced a more traditional plot of hp, torque vs motor rpm. Note that I'm using motorcycle.com's numbers for the hp / torque measurements, I assume these are uncorrected wheel measurements and I apply no corrections of my own.
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Thanks protomech. Those power and torque charts are interesting.
Now we need to find some IC motorcycle power curves to see what size IC motor compares with the Zero models. That would also be interesting and would give us something to talk about with other motorcycle owners so that they can compare one type of motor with another.
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Here's a motorcycle.com (http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php?g2_view=largephotos.Largephotos&g2_itemId=251394) dyno run of a 2010 Ninja 250; plot of hp, torque vs rpm.
(http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php/d/251394-2/2010-kawasaki-ninja-250r-hp-torque-dyno-1.jpg)
And see below attachments of plots of motor power vs rpm, and bike power vs mph.
Ninja 250R makes more power in 1st and 2nd gears below 40 mph or so, and in 5th and 6th gears above 70 mph.
0-60 times for the 250R are all over the place; MotorcycleUSA reports (http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/114/9135/Motorcycle-Article/2011-Honda-CBR250R-Comparison.aspx) 7.7s (carb), MCN reports (http://www.ninja250forum.com/forum/index.php?topic=3608.25) 10.2s (EFI model). Various forums report times in the 5-6s range but most likely they're FOS .. or about as accurate as my best guess for the Zero @ 10s 0-60 : )
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Thumpers rule... WR250X ;D
(http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php/d/225655-3/Dyno_Chart_wr250x_all.jpg)
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Interesting. It looks to me from the power and torque curves that a better comparison on the 2012 Zero with an IC motor would be something like a 500cc V-twin cruiser, where you get lots of low-speed torque and not as much peak power, relative to the torque produced.